1935 RN and IJN carrier air arms comparison

[Admiral Beez]

Could we argue that the RN's fleet air arm was about equal to the IJNAS in 1935? The IJNAS fielded the Nakajima Type 90 A2N1 fighter, Yokosuka B3Y torpedo bomber and newly arrived Aichi D1A dive bomber. The RN operated the Hawker Nimrod fighter and Blackburn Shark. But on the ships the IJN has the size advantage, with Akagi and Kaga being much larger than the Courageous class. If we throw in Furious, can the RN win the day?

 

[SaparotRob]

Were Akagi and Kaga still operating with that weird tri-flight deck setup in 1935?

 

[EwenS]

In 1935 you get Akagi OR Kaga not both.

Kaga was reconstructed between June 1934 & June 1935, but the final modifications were not completed until Nov. At that point her operational air group consisted of 16 x Type 90 A2N1 fighters, 16 x Type 94 D1A dive bombers and 28 x Type 89 B2M2 attack aircraft. Total 60. Anything else carried were reserve aircraft carried broken down in the lowest of the three hangars.

By Aug 1937 the air group consisted of 16 Yokosuka Type 92 B3Y1 and 22 B2M2 attack planes, 16 D1A1 "Susie" carrier-bombers and 16 A2N1 fighters. Total 70.

Akagi began her modernisation in Oct 1935 and it was not completed until Aug 1938. Until then her air group consisted of 60 aircraft including disassembled reserves.

The other Japanese carriers at the time were Hosho and Rjuyo. As of Dec 1934 the latter had an air group consisting of 6 (+2 spares) Nakajima Type 90 E4N3-C carrier-bombers, 6 (+2 spares) Yokosuka Type 92 B3Y1 attack planes and 12(+4 spares) Nakajima Type 90 A2N1 fighters. Total 24 + 8 resrves. The E4N3-C were replaced in 1935 with the D1A1.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Were Akagi and Kaga still operating with that weird tri-flight deck setup in 1935?

Indeed. As for the Brits, I don't know if post-Flycatcher if the three Outrageous were using the flying off deck.

It's a wonder that it would be another seventeen years before HMS Triumph became the first aircraft carrier to trial the angled flight deck. Though you could likely get by without arrestor wires in 1935. But as they say on the River Bank, that's another story.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In 1935 you get Akagi OR Kaga not both.

Maybe one Courageous vs Rjuyo is the closest to a 1935 match in CAG size.

The fighters make for a good comparison of speed over agility. The Nimrod is faster (193 vs 168 mph) and climbs better, while the A2N1 is more maneuverable (and has longer range). Though is there a prettier fixed wheel, open cockpit carrier biplane fighter than the Nimrod?

Well, there is the French Lévy-Biche LB.2. Lol, what an ugly SOB.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

1935, RN has the Furious class, plus Argus and Hermes, while Japan has Akagi, Kaga, and Hosho and Ryujo. One of the first two listed for the Japanese, I think the Kaga, is in the yard for upgrade to flat-decking, so you've got a Brit advantage on aircraft capacity -- but you've also got the RN hamstrung by the FAA being controlled by RAF rather than being organic to the navy.

In terms of aircraft, I don't there's much difference in capability; 1935 was one of those rare times in the 30s where aircraft advancement in naval aviation was still on the drawing-board and not yet afloat, so both navies were flying a/c roughly similar in performance.

 

[EwenS]

Further to my last post the RN position in 1935 was as follows:-

Argus - in Reserve since 1932. Converted to a Queen Bee auxiliary carrier 1936-38.
Eagle - 825 squadron (Fairey IIIF just 6 aircraft). Was en route from the Far East to home at start of the year. Disembarked aircraft at Malta in March and refit from June 1935 to Feb 1937. In the 1930s Eagle & Hermes were rotating on the China Station often with squadrons moving between the ships.
Hermes - 803 Squadron (9 Osprey) + 824 with 9 Fairey Seal). Total 18 aircraft. On China Station throughout 1935.
Furious - 801 (6 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey) + 811 (12 x Baffin) + 822 (12 x Fairey IIIF). Total 33 aircraft.
Courageous - 800 (9 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey) + 821 (9 x Fairey Seal), 820 (9 Fairey IIIF / Seal replaced by 12 Shark from Dec 1934 or May 1935 - sources differ). Total 30-33.
Glorious - 802 (9 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey), 812 (12 x Baffin), 825 (12 x Fairey IIIF from Sept 1935), 823 (12 x Seal from Oct 1935). Glorious was in refit until July 1935.


The air groups for Courageous & Glorious were supposed to be 48. Between refits and the Abyssinian Crisis late in the year there was a bit of movement of squadrons around. 822 (12 x Fairey IIIF) was taken from Furious & 823 (12 x Fairey Seal) which had been on Glorious before she went for refit, were split between Courageous & Glorious in Aug / Sept 1935 before settling in its entirity back on Glorious in Oct.

The Blackburn Shark is usually noted as having entered service in May 1935, although I have a source saying it was Dec 1934. Either way there was only one squadron equipped with that type in 1935. In the end only four front line 800 series squadrons flew the type.

As for Japan, on 25 Sept 1935 there was the "Fourth Fleet Incident". During exercises between Japan & the Kurile Islands the fleet was struck by a typhoon that caused structural damage to a number of ships. As a result Ryujo and Hosho had to undergo repairs and modifications starting Oct & Nov respectively. They didn't return to the fleet until May and March 1936 respectively.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Blackburn Shark is usually noted as having entered service in May 1935, although I have a source saying it was Dec 1934. Either way there was only one squadron equipped with that type in 1935. In the end only four front line 800 series squadrons flew the type.

We might need to add some Blackburn Baffin torpedo bombers to service alongside the early Sharks. Was the Fairey Seal torpedo capable? Thoughts on the Aichi D1A dive bomber, can we expect a showing in 1935? The FAA seems to have no dive bombing capability whatsoever at this stage.

 

[EwenS]

We might need to add some Blackburn Baffin torpedo bombers to service alongside the early Sharks. Was the Fairey Seal torpedo capable? Thoughts on the Aichi D1A dive bomber, can we expect a showing in 1935? The FAA seems to have no dive bombing capability whatsoever at this stage.

Until the mid-1930s the FAA had three functional types:-

1. Fighters (single seat Flycatcher followed by Nimrod for defence, with the two seat Osprey for more offensive action out of sight of the fleet)
2. Fleet spotter and recce (Fairey IIID then IIIF followed by the Seal). Capable of carrying up to 500lb of bombs under the wings.
3. Torpedo Bomber (Blackburn Dart, followed by the Ripon and then the Baffin)

Then in early 1930s new specifications called for a single type that could fulfil both of the latter two roles.That became the Torpedo-Spotter-Reconnaissance (TSR ) type as exemplified by:-

Blackburn Shark - service introduction Dec 1934 / May 1935, and
Fairey Swordfish - service introduction July 1936.

After that the Swordfish became the preferred aircraft, with the last Shark contract awarded for 95 Mk.III with a glazed canopy, in Jan 1937.

As for the Aichi D1A, the production contract for the D1A1 version was awarded in late 1934 (162 built 1934-37) while the improved, higher powered, D1A2 was developed in 1935 with the prototype completed in autumn 1936 (428 produced from 1936 to 1940. Bomb load 250kg under fuselage & 2x30kg under wings. (See Francillon). He notes it as having served in the air groups of Akagi, Kaga & Ryujo as well as shore based units. That would suggest that some were available for carrier use in 1935.

 

[Admiral Beez]

1935 seems to be a time of rapid transition.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Further to my last post the RN position in 1935 was as follows:-

Argus - in Reserve since 1932. Converted to a Queen Bee auxiliary carrier 1936-38.
Eagle - 825 squadron (Fairey IIIF just 6 aircraft). Was en route from the Far East to home at start of the year. Disembarked aircraft at Malta in March and refit from June 1935 to Feb 1937. In the 1930s Eagle & Hermes were rotating on the China Station often with squadrons moving between the ships.
Hermes - 803 Squadron (9 Osprey) + 824 with 9 Fairey Seal). Total 18 aircraft. On China Station throughout 1935.
Furious - 801 (6 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey) + 811 (12 x Baffin) + 822 (12 x Fairey IIIF). Total 33 aircraft.
Courageous - 800 (9 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey) + 821 (9 x Fairey Seal), 820 (9 Fairey IIIF / Seal replaced by 12 Shark from Dec 1934 or May 1935 - sources differ). Total 30-33.
Glorious - 802 (9 x Nimrod / 3 x Osprey), 812 (12 x Baffin), 825 (12 x Fairey IIIF from Sept 1935), 823 (12 x Seal from Oct 1935). Glorious was in refit until July 1935.


The air groups for Courageous & Glorious were supposed to be 48. Between refits and the Abyssinian Crisis late in the year there was a bit of movement of squadrons around. 822 (12 x Fairey IIIF) was taken from Furious & 823 (12 x Fairey Seal) which had been on Glorious before she went for refit, were split between Courageous & Glorious in Aug / Sept 1935 before settling in its entirity back on Glorious in Oct.

The Blackburn Shark is usually noted as having entered service in May 1935, although I have a source saying it was Dec 1934. Either way there was only one squadron equipped with that type in 1935. In the end only four front line 800 series squadrons flew the type.

As for Japan, on 25 Sept 1935 there was the "Fourth Fleet Incident". During exercises between Japan & the Kurile Islands the fleet was struck by a typhoon that caused structural damage to a number of ships. As a result Ryujo and Hosho had to undergo repairs and modifications starting Oct & Nov respectively. They didn't return to the fleet until May and March 1936 respectively.

I'd forgotten about HMS Eagle, thanks for pulling the short hairs.