1939/40: ideal Italian fighter?

The C.202 prototype flown for the first time in aug. 1940. With the licence of DB601 obtained in dec. 1939, the C.202, or any other DB601 engined aircraft, was not mass producible until 1941, unless the Germans, in early to mid 1939, guaranteed massive supplies of engines for the year 1940. Given the needs of aero engines they had themsemlves, this is higly unlikely.

It's sure, and I said it many times, that the limited production capacity of Alfa Romeo hampered the production of the fighters of the Intermediate Series. It's sufficient to see that, when Fiat started the production, it more than doubled the Alfa Romeo figures in a much more difficult environment. But these considerations are valid, in any case, for the years 1941-1942.

What's wrong with that?

Me-109 fighter aircraft production didn't average 200 per month until 1941. If Italy accomplishes similar production with Mc.202 they will be in good company.

Sure, and surely a C.202 with a DB601E and a central cannon would have been an very good fighter (although, even as it was, it must be given credit to the designers who, at the first attempt with an in-line engine, and the second with a metal monoplane fighter, got a result in the same league of the sixth iteration of the Bf109). But, to me, the topic was more about the fighter Italy could have had at the start of the war, that, for it, was in june 1940.
Obviously a fighter that could have been put in production first than june 1940, should have been able to fly for the first time in summer 1939 at the latest (and only assuming that the prototype was almost perfect), and then the engine must have been at least existing before that date (because the plane must be designed first to be built), and predicted to be fully available for 1940.

During June 1940 Italy would have what they had historically. It's a matter of development cycles. 1940 would be final year before Mc.202 and DB601 engine enter Italian service.

If Italy wants to wait for their new fighter aircraft then they will remain neutral until Operation Barbarossa. Which might be a good thing for both Italy and Germany as the initial invasion force could be quite a bit larger.

davebender said:

During June 1940 Italy would have what they had historically. It's a matter of development cycles.

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It's not. What has been done is not necessarily what could have been done. There are many ways to build a plane, and an air force, with what was available in 1939, also in 1939.

davebender said:

If Italy wants to wait for their new fighter aircraft then they will remain neutral until Operation Barbarossa.

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In june '41 Italy would have been at war from a year as it historically was. It's a matter of political cycles.
It's easy to make objection this way.
The topic requires hypothesis.

What's wrong with historical Mc.200 fighter aircraft? It compares well with many pre-1941 fighter aircraft such as Soviet I-16, American P-36 and British Hurricane. During 1941 it morphs into the superior Mc.202.

davebender said:

What's wrong with historical Mc.200 fighter aircraft? It compares well with many pre-1941 fighter aircraft such as Soviet I-16, American P-36 and British Hurricane. During 1941 it morphs into the superior Mc.202.

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The Macchi 2000 and Hurricane Mk1 are quite evenly matched in a lot of respects but in practice the Hurricane normally beat the Macchi. Whether this was because of the areas in which the Hurricane was better than Macchi or down to the RAF pilots being more aggressive than the Italians I am not entirely sure. I personally feel the Italian pilots may have lacked confidence in this machine because overall the gap between the Macchi and Hurricane was wide enough to give the RAF the edge. If you read the accounts of when these two types met over Greece in 1941 there was a clear pattern as to how things turned out.

davebender said:

What's wrong with historical Mc.200 fighter aircraft?

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There must necessarily be something wrong? The question was about an "ideal" fighter, and may be made even if the C.200 had nothing particularly wrong.
The C.200 and the G.50 flew for the first time in 1937. Close to the first flew of the Hurricane.
Probably in 1937 it was not possible to made something better (it was the "development cycle"), but, as for the Hurricane, in 1939 to make something better was possible. There was much more experience in designing monoplane fighters. It was not a question of developement cycle if the Caproni Vizzola F4 was stopped. if Stefanutti (the same that corrected the errors in the wing of the C.200), to design a fighter, focused on a complex projec as the SS4, instead on a much simpler one as the S7 (that designed at the same time as a racer). If the SS4 crashed at the second fly. Or if Piaggio, wanting to propose a fighter whit the P.XII (that at the same time was running on the bench), in march 1939, to bypass the aversion of the Regia Aeronautica for the use of big engines on fighters, proposed an overcomplicated aircraft as the P.119, that would have taken several years for the development, instead of a classic design that could have flown in six months.
All have had times when things went well, and times when things went wrong, for errors or bad luck. It 'a legitimate question to ask "what would happen if something went differently"?

pattle said:

If you read the accounts of when these two types met over Greece in 1941...

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This is an, altough incomplete, account (in italian) of the aerial operation over Greece from the late 1940 (Giulio Gobbi, "La Campagna di Grecia 1940/41").

"...I pochi bombardieri Greci non fecero molto, vista anche la scarsità di forze ma trovarono il coraggio di spingersi anche fino a Bari, subendo perdite. Arrivarono su Valona anche degli ospiti inattesi, 6 Vickers Wellington della RAF, attaccarono di giorno e senza scorta, intercettati dai G50, persero però quattro aerei, due abbattuti e due costretti all'atterraggio. Dalla parte dei Greci era arrivata la RAF, che con grande disappunto di Wavell, impegnato in Libia contro Graziani, dovette cedere al fronte Greco il 33° Squadron da caccia su Gloster Gladiator ed il 30° Bomber Squadron su Bristol Blenheim. Alla fine del mese giunsero in Grecia anche i Blenheim dell' 84° e del 211 Squadron e i Gladiator dell'80° e del 112°.
Le condizioni meteo diventavano sempre piu' inclementi, all'inizio di Dicembre i pochi SM81 rimasti vennero finalmente trasferiti a Lecce, e vennero convertiti in trasporti per cercare di alleviare la situazione rifornimenti che stava diventando drammatica, gli altri aerei vennero o ritrasferiti sugli aereoporti pugliesi o concentrati nei campi di volo Albanesi di Berati, Devoli, Argirocastro e Tirana, mentre in Puglia arrivavano 23 Macchi MC200 della 373° e 374° direttamente dal Veneto a Bari, 27 SM 79 del 42° Stormo a Grottaglie e a Lecce 14 JU87B del 97° grippo tuffatori, a Foggia 8 MC 200 della 370°. Il 95° Stormo veniva trasformato in reparto terrestre abbandonando i suoi CANT Z506 per i CANT Z1007, mentre venivano traferiti in Libia 12 SM79 e 21 Fiat G50.
Il primo scontro diretto fra la Regia e la RAF si ebbe il 19 Novembre, quando 20 Gladiator dell'80°Sqd. attaccarono 5 Fiat CR42 abbattendone 4. Il 27 Novembre altri 7 Gladiator attaccavano 3 CR42 abbattentendo uno, il giorno dopo, altro duello con quattro Gladiator abbattuti contro 3 CR42. I combattimenti che avvennero fino alla fine del mese erano piuttosto violenti, con anche 20 o 30 caccia per parte, prima della forzata pausa di Dicembre.
...
A febbraio del 1941 con un miglioramento del tempo, ricominciarono i duelli fra RAF e Regia, il 9, 24 CR42 di scorta ad alcuni BR20, si scontravano con una formazione mista di Gladiator e PZL, entrambe le parti persero due caccia. Il 13 Febbraio, 12 Blenheim in missione si Tepeleni. venivano attaccati da 12 G50 subendo cinque perdite. Il 20 Febbraio arrivano anche i primi Hurricane, il 27 la caccia Italiana non riusciva ad impedire il bombardamento del porto di Valona. Agli inizi di Marzo gli SM81 del 38° Stormo lasciavano il posto ai BR20 e i CR42 del 150° Gruppo ai MC200, arrivavno altri 12 JU87B e a Valona 32 Macchi MC200 e 8 Ro37. IL 4 marzo, 11 CR42 attaccavano una formazione di Blenheim protetti dagli Hurricane, nello scontro furono perduti due caccia italiani e uno inglese. Fra il 9 ed il 14 le perdite furono di 2 MC200, un Gladiator ed un Hurricane Il 16 gli inglesi perdevano 2 Wellington su Tirana, mentre i nostri caccia erano sempre piu' impegnati in missioni a bassa quota, il 22 marzo veniva attaccato di sorpresa l'aereoporto Greco di Paramythia, vennero distrutti al suolo due Blenheim ed un Wellington. In vista dell'intervento verso la Jugoslavia, il 2 aprile arrivano a Tirana altri 9 Ju87B della 208° Squadriglia, 9 Caproni CA311 della 87 Squadriglia osservazione aerea e in ugual numero i RO37 della 35°.
Il 6 Aprile iniziava l'intervento Tedesco nei Balcani, il VIII FliegerKorps della Luftflotte 4 fu mobilitato in Bulgaria per attaccare la Grecia e la Jugoslavia, c'erano gli JU87B del I e III StG, i caccia Messerschmitt ME 109E del II e III Jg27 e i ME 110C del II/ZG26, i ricognitori HS126 e Storch del I(H)/4, i trasporti JU52 del IV/KGzbVI. Erano pronte altre unità in Austria, Ungheria e in Sicilia. La scarna aviazione Jugoslava venne fatta letteralmente a pezzi in 48 ore, alla Grecia non andò meglio, complice anche un colpo fortunato su una nave carica di 250 tonnellate di esplosivo, uno JU87 devastò il porto di Atene affondando 10 navi con una sola bomba, il 9 Aprile i tedeschi erano a Salonicco e dopo altri 5 giorni, l'aviazione Greca aveva cessato di esistere, il 113° Squadron della RAF veniva annientato a terra, stessa sorte toccò ad altri aereoporti inglesi, alla sera del 14 la RAF contava solo 35 aerei in grado di volare, le perdite tredesche erano di soli due caccia! Il 6 Aprile i CANT Z1007 avevano attaccato il porto di Mostar in Jugoslavia perdendo un aereo e abbattendone due, su Spalato venne perso uno JU87B. Il 13 Aprile 300 fra caccia e bombardieri della Regia si avventavano su Mostar e sull'arsenale del Cattaro, perdendo solo uno JU87B. Il 26 la perdita degli ultimi 13 Hurricane a causa di un attacco al suolo portato da alcuni ME110, faceva cessare di esistere la RAF in Grecia, il giorno dopo veniva firmato l'armistizio."

Sorry Dogwalker I can't read Italian so I am unable to understand what was being said in your last post. From what I have read the RAF believed the MC200 to be a marked improvement over the Fiat G50 and CR42 that it earlier faced over Greece, but it was believed that the Hurricane enjoyed a 4-1 advantage over the MC200 in a dogfight. While the Mc200 was believed to be more agile and better in the climb than the Hurricane, it was said that the MC200 was at a definite disadvantage to the Hurricane because of its poor armament and also because of it's lack of armour to protect the pilot. The MC200 had a lot of potential and was able to be developed into a much better aircraft than the Hurricane. If the Italians had of been able to get their hands on a better DB engine the MC200 would have been a much faster aircraft but maybe it took battle experience against Hurricanes to learn that better armour and armament was vitally needed.
A very good book on this subject is The Air War over Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete 1940-1941, the writers have used records from all sides involved and quote actual reported losses as well as claims made.

An aircraft shouldn't need replacement two years after prototype first flight. If you do that then nothing remains in production long enough to optimize the production process. Italy could end up with nothing but prototypes and no mass produced fighter aircraft.

It depends on how fast the state of the art is progressing. Hawker Hurricane first flew at the end of 1935.

"Even before the new Hurricane was rolling off the production lines in March 1937, Sydney Camm had moved on to designing its replacement"

"In March 1938, Hawker received from the Air Ministry Specification F.18/37. F.18/37 asked for a fighter which would be able to achieve at least 400 mph (644 km/h) at 15,000 feet (4,600 m) and specified a British engine with a two-speed supercharger."

If you optimize your production process for a low performing aircraft you are depending on your opponent to run out of ammo before you run out of cheap planes and pilots.

At the time in question it was very common for initial design work to start on a fighter's replacement some time between the Prototype's first flight and and the plane going into squadron service.

"The Mitsubishi A5M fighter was just entering service in early 1937, when the Imperial Japanese Navy started looking for its eventual replacement"

That wouldn't be the case as Mc.200 evolves into the superior Mc.202. Macchi will need some retooling during 1941 but it's not a completely different aircraft. Rather like Fw-190A evolving into Fw-190D9.

Syndney Camm said after the war that if he had time he would have built a world beater, but instead he built the Hurricane because there wasn't the time, the Hurricane was a bit old fashioned but it would do. The Macchi 200 was more modern but was built before they had an engine for it which made it look pants, A bit like Fords building the Probe and putting old fashioned 8 valve engine in it.

I wonder if there was a prewar Italian policy of designing fighters with airframes capable of accommodating more advanced engines than were available at the time. The Re.2000, MC.200 and G.50 all proved capable of being re-engined to produce good mid to late war fighters - more so than did contemporary allied designs like the Hurricane or P40, even though those were designed around higher output powerplants. The Italians must have realised engines were their weak point.

A relatively modern 31 liter twin radial engine. Why can't it be developed to produce a bit more power? Mc.200 fighter was pretty light. Should have decent performance with 1,100hp.

The Fiat A.74 compares rather well to the early P W R-1830 engines when they were running on 87 octane fuel. The Fiat was a bit larger but ran at around the same speed, it used the same compression ratio and was usually fitted with a bit higher supercharger ( not so much in pressure as in rated altitude, most early R-1830 having a rated altitude of 2000 meters or less). They also weighed about the same, between 1200-1300lbs.
Using the same fuel and compression ratio you are limited to the boost you can use and so the only route to higher power is more rpm, P&W took that route and bumped the max RPM of the R-1830 from 2550 rpm to 2700rpm. The engine also gained about 100lbs or more at the same time. That 'minor' 150rpm 'bump' increased the stress on the reciprocating parts, crankshaft and crankcase by about 12%.
P&W R-1830s running on 87 octane at 2700rpm could make 1050hp for take off. Some where in here P W apparently fitted a completely new supercharger to the R-1830. The supercharger gear ratio drops from either 10:1, 11:1 or 12:1 (all were used) to 7.15:1 while altitude performance increases.
However weight is now 1433lbs ( or more). The jump to 1100-1200hp needs 91-100 octane fuel. Especially at altitude where the extra heat of compressing the air really affects the detonation limit.

Fiat, stuck with 87 octane fuel, has limited options. Redesigning for higher RPM may mean no, some, or all new reciprocating parts, new crankshaft and perhaps new/modified crankcase. There may (or may not) be bearing problems. P&W pioneered silver alloy bearings.

davebender said:

An aircraft shouldn't need replacement two years after prototype first flight.

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Is a medical prescription? The topic is about "1939/40 ideal italian fighter", so nothing is required other than an aircraft that could have been put in production in 1940 at the latest. The fact that an aircraft called "C.200" was put in production, or that has ever existed for that matter, isn't necessary in this hypothetical case.

However, the C.205 flown for the first time less than two years after the first flight of the C.202, whose prototype was requested at the same time the C.200 was chosen for the production. The same commission that choosed the first generation Italian fighters, in it's final report, recommended to swich to inlines asap, so reverting the precedent seven years of Regia Aeronautica policy (probably even too abruptly, if a firm "radialist" as Longhi, that probably would have gladly continued to evolve the Re.2000 with more and more powerful radials, had to go to with inlines in the Re.2001). It seems that they believed that the political decision of the years before, had led to the adoption of less than ideal aircrafts.

pattle said:

Sorry Dogwalker I can't read Italian so I am unable to understand what was being said in your last post.

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The C.200 came in Albania only in march 1941, and saw little action, since there were far more G.50 and CR.42. The report tells of only two aircraft lost, in excange of a Hurricane and a Gladiator. Maybe it's not complete, but it gives an idea.
The clashes over Malta could be more telling. I believe they gives to the Hurricane an advantage of about 2/1, but it have to be taken into account that the situation over Malta was similar to that of the BoB. A badly damaged Hurricane could land on Malta's airfields, a badly damaged C.200 had only the sea.
All considered, the Hurricane had probably an edge over the C.200, but the outcome was not so fixed.

davebender said:

A relatively modern 31 liter twin radial engine. Why can't it be developed to produce a bit more power?

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It was. It's intended developement was the A.76, whose prestations were comparable to the latest 87octane fuelled versions of the R-1830 (R-1830-SC3-G).
It was phased out in june 1940, as, having the licence of the DB601, a slightly less powerful radial was no more considered attractive for fighters.