1939/40: ideal Italian fighter?

[davebender]

The 601A has advantage in power between 2500-4500 m (the 'dent' in power curve is almost non-existing, vs. the notable 'dent' seen in Jumo 211B power curve, between two full throttle heights). The power above 5 km is as good identical, as is under 2000m. At 3500m, the 601A has 70 more HP, on 30 min power setting

.
It appears to me DB601A advantage over Jumo 211B was relatively small. So why didn't Jumo 211B get installed in some fighter aircraft? If nothing else Jumo 211 fighter engine could have been sold to friendly nations such as Sweden, Hungary and Italy. This would give Junkers a reason to continue fighter engine development, increasing the possibility for future installation in Luftwaffe fighter aircraft.

 

[parsifal]

what was the weight of the Junkers engine compared to the DB engine?

 

[riacrato]

Nations far preferred aircraft like the CR42 that followed a known formula...manouvre and agility. But where they did realize that the energy fighter was a good idea, they went for other types....aircraft like the hurricanere, Spitfire, P-36/H075, or MS406, and even the the Re2000 over the 109. Why was that?

There needs to be more light shed on this: To assess whether the other nations really "preferred" fighters like the CR42, it'd be important if the 109 was even in the run and under what circumstances. AFAIK post selection by the RLM, it was pretty much out of scope for any exports. Reasonable, since Germany was under pressure to build up it's own modern fighter force, most other nations having atm more modern fighters in their stables.

 

[Tante Ju]

So if Jumo was not suited for fighters from day one (no pressure cooling), the same logic applies for DB-601N and earlier.

I dont know for the Jumo engine, but the early 601A had 0,75 atü pressure cooling.

 

[Marcel]

The Dutch have been trying to buy Spitfires, Hurricanes and Bf109's form 1938 until the war. Most countries, including Germany refused to sell them. The Hurricane and the He112 were the only ones available. Then the retriction on export of engines even stopped that from happening. So if you guys are asking why the Germans and British did not export more Bf109's and Spitfires before the war, this might be your answer.

 

[pattle]

I don't think it was so much about the arms trade in the run up to the war. Private companies such as Vickers Supermarine or Hawker would have been interested in making as much money as possible from their designs but there was obviously a realisation in Britain and France that they would be needing all the fighters they could get and this is why both countries were looking to import fighters rather than export them. The major powers did however use arms sales to make friends and influence people for example Yugoslavia was license building both Hurricanes and Blenheims. As for Germany I think it was pretty much the same story, the Germans may have been able to spare a few aircraft here and there for political reasons but really they had their own plans for them and they were never going to deprive the Luftwaffe of 100's of Me109's just to give them to Hungary.

 

[Shortround6]

In a number of cases the foreign sales were not for cash but trades for raw materials. Without the raw materials total production of war items would have been lower than keeping the exported aircraft.

 

[Tante Ju]

The Dutch have been trying to buy Spitfires, Hurricanes and Bf109's form 1938 until the war. Most countries, including Germany refused to sell them. The Hurricane and the He112 were the only ones available. Then the retriction on export of engines even stopped that from happening. So if you guys are asking why the Germans and British did not export more Bf109's and Spitfires before the war, this might be your answer.

And it cant be a political decision - the Germans had no problems helping out the Dutch in building subs and battleships based on the Type VII and Scharnhorst class IIRC.

Usually the aircraft sold seems to be in the class of "also run..." - i.e. the loosers of national fighter etc. tenders. Re 2000 was such, He 100/112 was such, Do 215 etc., the Hurricane is somewhat of an exception, it was seen as an interim solution also..

 

[Marcel]

It was a political decision in the way that the germans knew they needed them themselves badly enough.
But what battleships are you talking about?

 

[Shortround6]

There were a few (2?) battle cruisers planned in the late 30s to help defend the Dutch East Indies against the Japanese. The idea being that a BC with nine 11in guns would offset the more numerous Japanese 8in cruisers. I don't think they were ever laid down.

See Wiki: Design 1047 battlecruiser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note this sentence. "Germany and the Netherlands were eventually able to reach an agreement where Germany would release plans and drawings based upon their ideas for a battlecruiser, in return for a guarantee that all needed equipment would be ordered from German firms".

There were only 5 countries in the world that had the design experience/capability to design such a ship (not including the Japanese) so the Germans already had a 20% chance of being talked to.

 

[Marcel]

Ah thanks to the both of you, this is new to me. I never really studied the navy. I'm suprised the ministery agreed with this though.
But to come back to tante Ju's statement about political or not. Gotto agree with him. The bf109 was not available for sale as the Germans needed the themselves. But they offered the advanced version of the He112 with DB601 engine. On paper a very potent fighter, believed to be on par with the bf109E at that time.

 

[davebender]

Production of modern German fighter aircraft and engines started from scratch during 1936. They had nothing to sell prior to 1940.

By 1940 Jumo 211 production was 400 engine per month and climbing like a rocket, passing 1,600 engines per month by mid 1942. Perhaps nobody wants their fighter powered by Jumo 211B but 1,340hp Jumo 211F entered service during 1941. Why wouldn't that engine work in Hungarian built He-112B or Italian built Mc.202?

 

[tomo pauk]

There is really no issue to use the Jumo 211 engines in a fighter.
The main problem was that Germany was not UK, neither USA. They rarely tried to make the best most of their allies, and their production capability ramped up just in time they lost most of the allies (with Japan being too far away to matter for Germany). The Axis powers rarely informed each another, and rearely talked about strategy, tactics and technology, and that was one reason for their demise.

 

[Shortround6]

Production of modern German fighter aircraft and engines started from scratch during 1936. They had nothing to sell prior to 1940.

Complete and utter nonsense.

The Germans did NOT start from scratch in 1936. First pre-production He 51 flew in May 1933. The Arado 65 was just a bit earlier. While the Arado 68 entered service in 1936 the Prototype had flown in 1934, Most Arado 68s used Jumo 210 engines.

Bulgaria got about 1 dozen Arado 65s and about a dozen He 51s. These types were also the mainstay at the start of the Spanish Civil war with first victories being scored in Aug 1936.

German had also produced hundreds of bombers by 1936 in addition of hundreds of fighters.

Granted the JU-86 bomber was not sold in large numbers but it was sold to Austria, Bolivia, Chile, Hungary, Portugal, Romania, South Africa and Sweden.

Germany in no way, shape or form was starting from scratch in 1936.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

Romanian military was mostly hopeless and Italy wasn't much better. However Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Finland and Don Cossacks fought just fine when properly equipped. Some Ukrainian militia units too. Potentially that adds up to anti-communist forces larger then German Wehrmacht. When Hungary expressed interest in producing He-112B Germany should have bent over backward to make that effort succeed on a large scale and they have nothing to lose by selling Jumo 211 engines to Italy.

Every Soviet aircraft shot down by Hungarian built He-112s is one less JG52 must contend with. Every British aircraft shot down by Jumo 211 powered Italian fighter aircraft is one less JG27 must contend with.

 

[Dogwalker]

Perhaps nobody wants their fighter powered by Jumo 211B but 1,340hp Jumo 211F entered service during 1941. Why wouldn't that engine work in Hungarian built He-112B or Italian built Mc.202?

If the engine entered in service for the Germans in mid 1941, when a reengined C.202 could have been in production? Mid '42? DB605 engined C.205 flown in april 1942, and the agreement for the licence production of the engine was already made at that time.
Certanly the Reggiane, whose production of Re.2001 was really suffering from lack of engines, would have been very happy to have a couple of hundred engines per month by the end of '41, whatever they were. But between Italian and German armies there never was such level of integration. The purchases of anything were limited to a few dozens of samples.

 

[Dogwalker]

Remember that 8 Jumo 211Da engined JIS79 (twin engined version of the SM79) were built in Italy for Romania in 1940, further 36 JRS79B, with the same engine, were lience built in Romania in 1941-42, and then 36 Jumo 211F engined JRS79B1 in 1942-43.
So it was possible to purchase the engine, but Romania could pay in oil, and even then, it was not to be so easy to obtain the engines, if one of them had to be removed from a JRS79B1, in 1942, to be then mounted on the prototype of the Jumo211 engined IAR-80 (that flew only once).

 

[Tante Ju]

Oh jesus thats a fugly plane

 

[parsifal]

I kinda like the way it looks. it kinda grows on you.....

 

[fastmongrel]

I kinda like the way it looks. it kinda grows on you.....

So does fungus