1942 and on: RAF fields 'proper' P-38s - consequences?

[FLYBOYJ]

As mentioned I think the RAAF and RNZAF would have benefitted the most

 

[nuuumannn]

As mentioned I think the RAAF and RNZAF would have benefitted the most

Sure would have, the range would have been most useful for both services, considering the island ops both forces carried out in the Pacific. The RAAF did actually operate the P-38E as a strictly photo recon machine, but they only had three of them.

 

[Kryten]

The P38 would have been a usefull addition to the Coastal Comand inventory, having a fighter with good range over the North Sea and Bay of Biscay supporting the Beaus and anti U boat bombers could have well saved a number of lives!

 

[tomo pauk]

The area where the P-38 could be of interest is also MTO. Operating from Gibraltar and Malta in 1942, so the convoys have easier time?

 

[Balljoint]

If I recall correctly, some P-38s were equipped with plexi noses and bombsights and others had radar operators as night fighters. While heavy ordinance was external, the lightning could lug a ton or so. These weren't the detuned early models the Brits got, but it shows the potential

 

[wuzak]

The only reason why pathfinders were needed is because the RAF was expected to go out at night in all conditions and find their targets. On a moonlit night you can see terrain and ground features quite well, this is from actual flying experience and I'm sure other civilian and former military pilots on this forum will agree with me. It's when target areas become obscured either by weather or defensive measures where pathfinders become necessary, aside from marking the target.

Well that, and that apparently they weren't very good at night navigation. Don't know how often VFR conditions existed, and how much better the navigation was in those conditions. And remember, these were bombers with dedicated trained navigators.

 

[wuzak]

The only thing that makes the Mosquito a "night fighter" was it's radar equipment. Aside from things like flame arrestors and minor cockpit mods, true WW2 night fighters were based on the installation of radar.

That would make the P-61 the only "true" nightfighter of WW2. But what is really different between it and the contemporary NF.XXX? Seating position, disposition of monitors?

After WW2 when this equipment became "standard" notice how the "night fighter" term went into the sunset.

It was some time after WW2 before radar became standard equipment. In the mean time I believe radar euipped fighters were known as "all weather fighters"

They were and that's another reason why the "Merlin Myth" was so difficult to really confirm, but that's another story.

Which myth is that? That Lockheed prepared performance estimates of a P-38 with Merlins - or three?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well that, and that apparently they weren't very good at night navigation. Don't know how often VFR conditions existed, and how much better the navigation was in those conditions. And remember, these were bombers with dedicated trained navigators.

Without the aid of electronic equipment, mainly ADF, you're navigating with "pilotage" and "dead reckoning." Pilotage you need ground references, Dead reckoning depended in knowing winds aloft and depending how accurate you neded to get, air temperatures. Finally you have celestial navigation which could be difficult but used in a combination of any of the three could be used effectively, especially over the European Continent.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That would make the P-61 the only "true" nightfighter of WW2. But what is really different between it and the contemporary NF.XXX? Seating position, disposition of monitors?

Radar equipment. The P-61 was the only aircraft designed fromt he ground up as a night fighter. Take the radar equipment away and it was just another large twin engine fighter.

It was some time after WW2 before radar became standard equipment. In the mean time I believe radar euipped fighters were known as "all weather fighters"

They were and the term "all weather"seemed to spring up in the early 1950s.

Which myth is that? That Lockheed prepared performance estimates of a P-38 with Merlins - or three?

There were studies done, I never seen any published and there were rumors that even drawings were started trying to fit the Merlin into the P-38. There was even talk of getting rid of the yoke and putting a stick in the aircraft, again heard from more than one person who i used to work with who worked on the P-38 during WW2.

 

[wuzak]

Radar equipment. The P-61 was the only aircraft designed fromt he ground up as a night fighter. Take the radar equipment away and it was just another large twin engine fighter.

So, how is it different to the NF.XXX? They shared the same radar after all. The only difference I can see is that the NF.XXX was based on an existing airframe.

There were studies done, I never seen any published and there were rumors that even drawings were started trying to fit the Merlin into the P-38. There was even talk of getting rid of the yoke and putting a stick in the aircraft, again heard from more than one person who i used to work with who worked on the P-38 during WW2.

There is the story that a P-38 was delivered to Rolls-Royce for a trial fitment of Merlins - before word cam down from on high to return the P-38 untouched. This was later, and not related to the Lightning Is.

 

[davebender]

The Mustang was built to British specifications and hundreds were purchased from 1941 onward. What can a P-38 do that a Mustang cannot?

 

[nuuumannn]

British specifications

The aircraft that became the Mustang was built to a British requirement, not to a particular spec by them. Originally the Brits wanted NA to build P-40s under licence for them. That's when 'Dutch' Kindleberger reputedly said "we can build you a better airplane than the P-40"

 

[FLYBOYJ]

So, how is it different to the NF.XXX? They shared the same radar after all. The only difference I can see is that the NF.XXX was based on an existing airframe.

Don't know what you mean by NF.XXX

There is the story that a P-38 was delivered to Rolls-Royce for a trial fitment of Merlins - before word cam down from on high to return the P-38 untouched. This was later, and not related to the Lightning Is.

Never heard that one but I wouldn't say it wasn't a possibility

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Mustang was built to British specifications and hundreds were purchased from 1941 onward. What can a P-38 do that a Mustang cannot?

If we're on subject talking about the P-332s, there couldn't even come close to an Allison Mustang

 

[wuzak]

Don't know what you mean by NF.XXX

Mosquito NF.XXX.

Could be fitted with British AI Mk IX or AI Mk X (British designation for the SCR 720) radar. But mostly fitted with the Mk X, I believe.

The Mosquito NF.XIX could also take both, but it only had single stage engines, IIRC, so had lower performance.

Never heard that one but I wouldn't say it wasn't a possibility

The story continues that political pressure by GM forced the USAAF to ask for the plane back. Not sure who sent the P-38 to Rolls-Royce in the first place.

At some stage there must have been some serious consideration to a Merlin P-38, since 1/3 of Packard production was to be used for American aircarft. At the beginning of Packard production there really was only the P-40 as a viable recipient.

 

[parsifal]

Don forget guys that in wartime over enemy occupied Europe you are faced with both active and passive defences. i dont ow much of a difference it makes, but ther is a full blackout, smoke machines, radar jammers , flak covering geographic points like rivers, coasts and road junctons. its a harder excercise in wartime i would think....

 

[stona]

Navigating over Europe at night was so easy that during the famous Nuremberg raid at least a couple of Pathfinders marked Shweinfurt. There were green target indicators backed up by reds and also red and yellow skymarkers reported by confused Mainforce crews who proceeded to bomb Schweinfurt. No single Pathfinder carried this combination of markers.

Schweinfurt is roughly 60 miles from Nuremberg,as the crow flies.

Steve

 

[beitou]

Radar equipment. The P-61 was the only aircraft designed fromt he ground up as a night fighter. Take the radar equipment away and it was just another large twin engine fighter.
They were and the term "all weather"seemed to spring up in the early 1950s.


There were studies done, I never seen any published and there were rumors that even drawings were started trying to fit the Merlin into the P-38. There was even talk of getting rid of the yoke and putting a stick in the aircraft, again heard from more than one person who i used to work with who worked on the P-38 during WW2.

What would be the advantage of a stick over a yoke ?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What would be the advantage of a stick over a yoke ?

Less cumbersome
Less moving parts
Easier to rig flight controls
Better feel of the aircraft

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mosquito NF.XXX.

Could be fitted with British AI Mk IX or AI Mk X (British designation for the SCR 720) radar. But mostly fitted with the Mk X, I believe.

The Mosquito NF.XIX could also take both, but it only had single stage engines, IIRC, so had lower performance.

Ok - but point being, take the radar equipment away and the aircraft becomes a twin engine fighter as the same for the P-61

The story continues that political pressure by GM forced the USAAF to ask for the plane back. Not sure who sent the P-38 to Rolls-Royce in the first place.

At some stage there must have been some serious consideration to a Merlin P-38, since 1/3 of Packard production was to be used for American aircarft. At the beginning of Packard production there really was only the P-40 as a viable recipient.

Again, it wouldn't surprise me, but IMO I don't think the merlin would have that great of an improvement on the P-38. What "should have" been done was to produce the P-38K