chris mcmillin
Airman
The fastest jet is the one with the most thrust. The Vampire has the most thrust.
Chris...
Chris...
2019 Reno Air Races
- Thread starter NVSMITH
- Start date
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hi Chris - great to see you here, it's been a while!
Actually not always true - here's a clip from a few years ago where the faster jet was just outflown by the guy who was able to get the jump down the chute and hold his line along the course. Excuse the music, it gets a little monotonous, but there are some interesting moments toward the end of the clip! (from about 4:10 on)
Skyediamonds
Staff Sergeant
- 1,080
- May 26, 2018
Well guys, just had a great time for the last two days at the races. A little bit of everything for everybody. The "usual" military aircraft were on display such as C-130 & C-17 along with flight demos from the F-18 Hornets, along with aircraft competing for the American Heritage Trophy put out by the Smithsonian & there's also a vote among the general public for the People's Choice award. Those aircraft are generally privately owned or from some of the local museums that have been lovingly restored. Aircraft such as Stinson Reliant SR-9A, SR-9, T-33, a couple of open cockpit Waco biplanes, Meyers 200, Globe Swift, Cessna-195, Cessna-140 (the last three were left in highly polished aluminum), Lockheed PV-2 Harpoon (advertises itself as being third from the last production aircraft & flew straight to the AZ boneyard. When the first owner bought it, it had a total of 7 hours of flight time), L-39 Albatros, a lovingly restored Grumman Goose amphibian with retractable wingtip floats, two Cessna O-2's, a privately owned Cobra helicopter, a scooped up PZL "Wilga" with oversized balloon tires & powered by a PT-6 turboprop engine (that thing was huge!), & a all silver/aluminum finished PT-17. There were a few more, but I'm recalling the list of aircraft off the top of my head. The Thunderbirds showed up, made a couple of swift fly-bys then flew back to Reno Int'l Airport or Las Vegas. They had all classes of racers flying. Absent, were the real highly modified warbirds such as Rare Bear, Strega, Voo Doo (now Aircraft Partners & holder of new world speed record, Furious, September Fury & others. Most "Unlimiteds were pretty much stock or very little done to really go all out on speed. There was an incident that supposedly two Formula One Aircraft clipped one another with a prop strike but as of this writing (almost midnight my time) remains unconfirmed. Whew. That's for starters. Blue skies & temps were in the low 90 degrees F. Tomorrow is predicted to be the same except more windy & more people & more expensive to buy tickets (prices go up each day starting on Thursday leading up to the Gold Races on Sunday).
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well in the jet class, "Dark Shadows," the DH Vampire had it's engine seize, so its out of the running. Right now it looks like a P & W JT12A powered L29 "Just Lucky" will be the favorite in the gold. Pete Zaccagnino will be flying it, he's a great pilot.
"Just Lucky" is currently the only modified L29 being allowed to fly in the jet class. The last heat he ran was 05:31.427 (6 laps) at 510.411 mph
"Just Lucky" is currently the only modified L29 being allowed to fly in the jet class. The last heat he ran was 05:31.427 (6 laps) at 510.411 mph
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Skyediamonds
Staff Sergeant
- 1,080
- May 26, 2018
Did they ever reveal why the Vampire's engine seized? Lack of oil on the thrust bearings? Or lack of oil on any of the shaft bearings? That's usually the main cause. Unless he did a hard landing on his previous run & the turbine blades rubbed against the segments or the compressor section for the same reasons.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I haven't heard the cause but I could tell you it's never for any lack of lubrication. These jets are run hot during the race and sometimes trimmed to their max EGT so it's a matter of time before something gives out.
BTW - these guys don't do hard landings unless they have to!
Pete won the gold at 495.106
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
No personal experience to tell, although that's very cool to find out FlyboyJ was there racing for many years.
My only addition is that every time I hear about the races in Reno, I go back to finding my first issue of Air Progress magazine at a store in south Seattle.
It was the issue that announced the jets were returning to Reno after a long absence.
May of '74, I believe.
...Nope, looked it up. April of '74...
Elvis
My only addition is that every time I hear about the races in Reno, I go back to finding my first issue of Air Progress magazine at a store in south Seattle.
It was the issue that announced the jets were returning to Reno after a long absence.
May of '74, I believe.
...Nope, looked it up. April of '74...
Elvis
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Daddio
Airman
I enjoyed every minute at the races! (Full disclosure - I'm still just a future pilot, and better get a move on!) I was there Saturday and Sunday - what a blast!
Because I maintain & operate an R2800 at the lab, I'm partial to round engines, but it doesn't take very many Merlins (one maybe?) to give you chills! It was heartbreaking to see Miss America start smoking pretty bad in the gold race. She had to pull out of the race of course. Safe landing and shutdown, but I never heard the full story.
See you there in 2020!
Because I maintain & operate an R2800 at the lab, I'm partial to round engines, but it doesn't take very many Merlins (one maybe?) to give you chills! It was heartbreaking to see Miss America start smoking pretty bad in the gold race. She had to pull out of the race of course. Safe landing and shutdown, but I never heard the full story.
See you there in 2020!
What are the Race Rules that limit the power and speed?
Remember they ran with a couple Mig 17's and the rules changed dramatically after that.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
They did but during that time those events were more demonstrations than anything else. RARA and RJI made the playing field more accessible to the more common jets operated in the US and also limited size due to jet wash issues (for example T-33s and the T-2 Buckeye can't race). After the crash of Brad Morehouse in 2008 and then the galloping Ghost in 2010, RARA wanted to limit any potential of spectators getting injured so they came up with a course speed limit so at pylon 7 a debris field would not reach the grandstands. In the jet class they disallowed the RR Viper powered L29s but allowed the JT-12 modification in the L29. L39s have been modified and allowed to fly with different engines (Garrett TFE731 and the
Ivchenko AI-25TL) but so far they really haven't been that competitive.
Remember reading about the Migs racing and agreed to race without using afterburners.
But they did anyway trying and stay ahead of the others.
During an interview the pilots commented they got tired from holding the high G turns.
Which they seemed to always be turning at that speed.
Skyediamonds
Staff Sergeant
- 1,080
- May 26, 2018
Flyboy & gentlemen,
I was there many years ago at the Reno air races when the jets were first raced but for demonstration purposes. The MiG-17 couldn't keep up with some of the other jets so he kicked in his afterburner in total violation of rules. But since it was for demonstration purposes, he didn't get penalized & the crowd roared with laughter.
On the side note: I used to work on the JT-8's & PT-6'. One time, the personnel forgot to add oil to the JT-8 prior to running it in the test cell. That engine burned up & seized!
Can't speak for all jet engines but the JT-8's has oil sprayed into the bearings at high pressure through what is best described as a series of vanes. It's been well over forty years & I've forgotten the nomenclature for the type of spray & means of controlling the oil flow. With the pressure even reduced to below minimums, the engines would seize.
I do know the engine's oil pump operated on "positive displacement," meaning the oil pump is geared to the main shaft & so long as the main shaft continued to spin, even if the engine has been shut down & the spool is winding down, oil will continue to be pumped into the bearings. This often resulted in a small puddle of oil at the lower portion of the individual burner cans (or annular can types in more modern jets) at complete shut down. Thus, when the engine is started up again, there's often a slight puff of smoke coming out the exhaust as the burners "lite up" & burn the remaining oil puddle.
I was there many years ago at the Reno air races when the jets were first raced but for demonstration purposes. The MiG-17 couldn't keep up with some of the other jets so he kicked in his afterburner in total violation of rules. But since it was for demonstration purposes, he didn't get penalized & the crowd roared with laughter.
On the side note: I used to work on the JT-8's & PT-6'. One time, the personnel forgot to add oil to the JT-8 prior to running it in the test cell. That engine burned up & seized!
Can't speak for all jet engines but the JT-8's has oil sprayed into the bearings at high pressure through what is best described as a series of vanes. It's been well over forty years & I've forgotten the nomenclature for the type of spray & means of controlling the oil flow. With the pressure even reduced to below minimums, the engines would seize.
I do know the engine's oil pump operated on "positive displacement," meaning the oil pump is geared to the main shaft & so long as the main shaft continued to spin, even if the engine has been shut down & the spool is winding down, oil will continue to be pumped into the bearings. This often resulted in a small puddle of oil at the lower portion of the individual burner cans (or annular can types in more modern jets) at complete shut down. Thus, when the engine is started up again, there's often a slight puff of smoke coming out the exhaust as the burners "lite up" & burn the remaining oil puddle.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
No - In 2015 when the team I was working for (Riff-Raff Racing) Took 2nd in the gold and 1st in the silver, I contemplated "hanging it up." When friend, competitor and former race boss Mike Mangold was killed flying an L39 in December of that year, that pushed me over the edge. Last year I stopped turning wrenches on jet warbirds all together.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Skyediamonds - I crewed a viper powered L29 and a stock L39 and we kept oil levels at max levels at all times, oil, or lack there of was never a culprit in the engine failures I seen on these racing jets.
Most of the times I seen turbine failures due to hot starts - crews would try to get the engines to run as hot as possible in order to gain max thrust. In doing so during the start sequence, you would see Turbine Inlet Temps rising to the limit and sometimes exceeding limits. Even if you're not getting an "official" hot start, this is not good for these engines. I believe Mike Mangold had a turbine failure on his L39 (the same one he raced) thus resulting in his death.
For the record. the L39 has an auto sequence starting system where you start and APU and it fires up the engine. Any mis-adjustments in the set up could be disastrous. I seen several L39s burn up on the ground during engine start.
I saw Dexter Holland's (Lead singer in the band The Offspring) L39 blow a turbine disk during a start in 2009 IIRC
Skyediamonds
Staff Sergeant
- 1,080
- May 26, 2018
Flyboy,
I'm truly sorry for your loss. Had no idea of the details of why you decided to "hang up your spurs" until now. My heartfelt condolences to you & those near your heart.
Hot starts are a whole new animal. If it was a hot start that contributed to the destruction of the Mangold's plane, as much as I'd hate to say it, then that would make sense. It's the starting sequence that is when jet engines reach their threshold limits on turbine inlet temps. Not when the engine is already running at full power. Not at full power while brakes are holding the plane on the runway. Not when the engines are at idle. Not even when the pilots initiates rapid throttle movements. It's the start that has the engines raise their temps to near-limits.
I could go into detail here but Flyboy already knows. Or, for the benefit of our fellow members, either one of us could explain in detail. Just let us know.
It's also listed as one of the "No-Go" items on the airline's checklist. If the temps have exceeded a specific value, then it's classified as a hot start & the pilots are required to shut down; & depending upon the temps, values, airline policy, manufacturer's protocols, either wait say, ten minutes & try again. If the engine hot starts again, then the plane is grounded. I know.... it happened to me when I was a passenger.
However, to keep things in context, that occurrence took place decades ago when jet starts were manually started by pilots. Thus, the reasons for auto-starts in today's jet engines that makes hot starts a rarity.
People don't realize that small fact that starting jet engine is where the highest temps occur & where the greatest wear & tear occurs is on recips.
On reciprocating engines if they haven't been run for awhile. The oil drips down to the sump & the cylinder liners are deprived of that thin oil film to lubricate the pistons & their rings & guess what? That first crank of the engine & the first few seconds of running has metal scraping against metal until the oil catches up.
Radials are subject to hydraulic lock ....
The turbine disc are life-limited based upon engine cycles (start, running & then shut down is one cycle). Once they've reached their limits, the discs are canned; no matter how good in condition they may (appear) to be. Where I used to work, we were also mandated to cut the discs in half so as to prevent anyone "dumpster diving" for used discs.
They also have their own logs.
Turbine discs are also a extremely critical component of the engine. They really get "babied" in care.
I could go into some stories of how a particular South American country forged the logs on a few of their discs just to save money, but that'll wait until another time to share. I had to admit that audacity of it all. I was in disbelief for about a week.
Skye
I'm truly sorry for your loss. Had no idea of the details of why you decided to "hang up your spurs" until now. My heartfelt condolences to you & those near your heart.
Hot starts are a whole new animal. If it was a hot start that contributed to the destruction of the Mangold's plane, as much as I'd hate to say it, then that would make sense. It's the starting sequence that is when jet engines reach their threshold limits on turbine inlet temps. Not when the engine is already running at full power. Not at full power while brakes are holding the plane on the runway. Not when the engines are at idle. Not even when the pilots initiates rapid throttle movements. It's the start that has the engines raise their temps to near-limits.
I could go into detail here but Flyboy already knows. Or, for the benefit of our fellow members, either one of us could explain in detail. Just let us know.
It's also listed as one of the "No-Go" items on the airline's checklist. If the temps have exceeded a specific value, then it's classified as a hot start & the pilots are required to shut down; & depending upon the temps, values, airline policy, manufacturer's protocols, either wait say, ten minutes & try again. If the engine hot starts again, then the plane is grounded. I know.... it happened to me when I was a passenger.
However, to keep things in context, that occurrence took place decades ago when jet starts were manually started by pilots. Thus, the reasons for auto-starts in today's jet engines that makes hot starts a rarity.
People don't realize that small fact that starting jet engine is where the highest temps occur & where the greatest wear & tear occurs is on recips.
On reciprocating engines if they haven't been run for awhile. The oil drips down to the sump & the cylinder liners are deprived of that thin oil film to lubricate the pistons & their rings & guess what? That first crank of the engine & the first few seconds of running has metal scraping against metal until the oil catches up.
Radials are subject to hydraulic lock ....
The turbine disc are life-limited based upon engine cycles (start, running & then shut down is one cycle). Once they've reached their limits, the discs are canned; no matter how good in condition they may (appear) to be. Where I used to work, we were also mandated to cut the discs in half so as to prevent anyone "dumpster diving" for used discs.
They also have their own logs.
Turbine discs are also a extremely critical component of the engine. They really get "babied" in care.
I could go into some stories of how a particular South American country forged the logs on a few of their discs just to save money, but that'll wait until another time to share. I had to admit that audacity of it all. I was in disbelief for about a week.
Skye
