30 000 Fw 190s - how?

tomo pauk · Feb 11, 2020

Or - how to have Germany make an extra 10000 of Fw 190s in the time of 1940-45? That is with campaigns/milestones of the war (BoB, OP Barbarossa, US entry in the war, invasions of Italy, German retreat from Soviet Union etc.) unfold pretty much as they did historically. Obvously, it will require robbing Paul (= not making something else, or change something else on production lines) to pay Paul (= make more 190s).

It is also required here that Bf 109 is produced in historical numbers at least. Ditto for night fighters and jet fighters. The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

Admiral Beez · Feb 11, 2020

tomo pauk said:
It is also required here that Bf 109 is produced in historical numbers at least. Ditto for night fighters and jet fighters. The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

I don't think there's an inverse relationship of Fw 190 to Bf 109. There are plenty of other production aircraft and concept prototypes that can be canceled to produce more Fw 190.

Shortround6 · Feb 11, 2020

tomo pauk said:
It is also required here that Bf 109 is produced in historical numbers at least. Ditto for night fighters and jet fighters. The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

Then you are running out of options, fewer Do-217s and Ju 88s are your only real sources for large numbers of BMW 801s.

There just weren't enough DB 603s built (A total of 8,758?) to make up the difference, especially if you build the historic number of night fighters (He 219s, Me 410s and what not) that were powered by them. You also need 30-50% spare engines to keep the planes flying.

Kevin J · Feb 11, 2020

Germany has many European Allies. Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy. Get them to produce the extra Fw 190s that you need.

Shortround6 · Feb 11, 2020

Kevin J said:
Germany has many European Allies. Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy. Get them to produce the extra Fw 190s that you need.

They were already trying to get France to build BMW 801 engines.

The tooling for the airframe factories and the engine factories has to come from somewhere and it sure wasn't coming from Romania, Slovakia, Croatia, or even Italy (especially Italy after the summer of 1943).

The British were buying German machine tools in the mid and late 30s to equip their expansion. the machine tool industry in Germany's allies was small and in all likely hood insufficient for their own needs. Just look at the Hungarian Me 210 Program.

Kevin J · Feb 12, 2020

Shortround6 said:
They were already trying to get France to build BMW 801 engines.

The tooling for the airframe factories and the engine factories has to come from somewhere and it sure wasn't coming from Romania, Slovakia, Croatia, or even Italy (especially Italy after the summer of 1943).

The British were buying German machine tools in the mid and late 30s to equip their expansion. the machine tool industry in Germany's allies was small and in all likely hood insufficient for their own needs. Just look at the Hungarian Me 210 Program.

That's a good idea, get the French and Spanish to help you win your war. IIRC, they weren't very helpful when asked by the Germans.
There are other possible helpers: Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia which ended up as the most technologically States in the USSR. Even Ukraine who'd suffered a lot under Stalin. Unfortunately, these were all inferior peoples in Nazi eyes.

tomo pauk · Feb 12, 2020

The Me 210 and 410 program has to go. That is 2x1189= frees almost 2280 DB 603 engines, plus 2x 702 = around 1400 DB 601E/605A engines 'free', a total of 3480 engines. Obviously, re-engining of the Fw 190 with V12 engines need to start ASAP.
Before people say that DB 601E/605A cannot power a Fw 190 airframe - let's recall that 190 was a smaller aircraft than Re.2005 or MC.205N, let alone the Fiat G.55, and all of these Italian fighters were well regarded, even when their engine was not yet fully rated.
We're still 6500+ engines short, so something else also needs to be cut. I'd propose the Hs 129, while relocating the Gnome & Rhone factory lines in Germany so something useful can be produced instead of the G&R 14M.

Shortround6 · Feb 12, 2020

tomo pauk said:
Before people say that DB 601E/605A cannot power a Fw 190 airframe - let's recall that 190 was a smaller aircraft than Re.2005 or MC.205N, let alone the Fiat G.55, and all of these Italian fighters were well regarded, even when their engine was not yet fully rated.

The 190 was smaller, was it lighter?
How close do you have to get to real Fw 190s in performance?
Use the 190D as a guide?
I haven't looked into it yet.

tomo pauk said:
We're still 6500+ engines short, so something else also needs to be cut. I'd propose the Hs 129, while relocating the Gnome & Rhone factory lines in Germany so something useful can be produced instead of the G&R 14M.

Many of the Hs 129s were powered by engines taken off existing French aIrcraft (salvage). The Gnome-Rhone managers managed to build about 1/4 of the engines the Germans wanted/had set goals for while keeping much of their machinery and workers and managed to keep from getting themselves and the workers shot for sabotage. A fine line.
I believe the BMW 801 was being produced or at least parts were coming from French Factories. The Jumo 213 was being produced in France, at least in small numbers.

I don't think you are going to see a large increase in engines from the French, I believe the French were also building the Argus 411 which helped free up Argus for other projects.

Shortround6 · Feb 12, 2020

Kevin J said:
That's a good idea, get the French and Spanish to help you win your war. IIRC, they weren't very helpful when asked by the Germans.
There are other possible helpers: Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia which ended up as the most technologically States in the USSR. Even Ukraine who'd suffered a lot under Stalin. Unfortunately, these were all inferior peoples in Nazi eyes.

The politics or German view of some of these countries didn't matter, what mattered was most of them had little aircraft or aircraft engine industry, in fact some of them didn't have much industry at all. Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian car or truck factories? the fact that some of these countries managed to build a few prototypes or even a dozen planes does not mean they could produce hundreds a month.

Kevin J · Feb 12, 2020

Shortround6 said:
The politics or German view of some of these countries didn't matter, what mattered was most of them had little aircraft or aircraft engine industry, in fact some of them didn't have much industry at all. Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian car or truck factories? the fact that some of these countries managed to build a few prototypes or even a dozen planes does not mean they could produce hundreds a month.

The Ukraine had skilled people, even aircraft manufacturers. Poland too, which was also a fascist state, subhumans of course in German eyes. Lots of skilled and educated Jews too, but regarded as vermin. It doesn't take much imagination to understand why the master race lost.

tomo pauk · Feb 12, 2020

Shortround6 said:
The 190 was smaller, was it lighter?
How close do you have to get to real Fw 190s in performance?
Use the 190D as a guide?
I haven't looked into it yet.

The DB 601E with ancilliaries + cooling system = 720 + ~150 kg = 870 kg. Saves 180+ kg vs. BMW 801C and D, plus weight of armor for oil cooler (78 kg armor for cooler and tank; armor was heavier on the 'Sturmboecke'). The Fw 190A-3 was 3890 kg clean (8580 lbs, with 4 cannons), so we'd get 3710 kg minus 78 kg = 3630 kg. Re.2005 weighted 3560 kg clean.
Installation of a V12 is bound to cut the drag here, too.
Against BMW 801C with 1380 PS at 4.6 km for 3 minutes, the DB 601E will make 1320 PS at 4.8 km for 5 minutes or 1200 PS at 4.9 km for 30 min, with far better consumption and reliability.

Many of the Hs 129s were powered by engines taken off existing French aIrcraft (salvage). The Gnome-Rhone managers managed to build about 1/4 of the engines the Germans wanted/had set goals for while keeping much of their machinery and workers and managed to keep from getting themselves and the workers shot for sabotage. A fine line.
I believe the BMW 801 was being produced or at least parts were coming from French Factories. The Jumo 213 was being produced in France, at least in small numbers.

I don't think you are going to see a large increase in engines from the French, I believe the French were also building the Argus 411 which helped free up Argus for other projects.

I haven't suggested that French make more engines, but to relocate tooling from G&R to Germany proper. French workers can be offered with job, management will be German.

Kevin J · Feb 12, 2020

tomo pauk said:
The DB 601E with ancilliaries + cooling system = 720 + ~150 kg = 870 kg. Saves 180+ kg vs. BMW 801C and D, plus weight of armor for oil cooler (78 kg armor for cooler and tank; armor was heavier in on 'Sturmboecke'). The Fw 190A-3 was 3890 kg clean (8580 lbs, with 4 cannons), so we'd get 3710 kg minus 78 kg = 3630 kg. Re.2005 weighted 3560 kg clean.
Installation of a V12 is bound to cut the drag here, too.
Against BMW 801C with 1380 PS at 4.6 km for 3 minutes, the DB 601E will make 1320 PS at 4.8 km for 5 minutes or 1200 PS at 4.9 km for 30 min, with far better consumption and reliability.

I haven't suggested that French make more engines, but to relocate tooling from G&R to Germany proper. French workers can be offered with job, management will be German.

So that would be in addition to the 2 million French POWs.

Admiral Beez · Feb 12, 2020

Kevin J said:
Germany has many European Allies. Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy. Get them to produce the extra Fw 190s that you need.

Send the tooling and drawings to Japan. Japan can make your thousands of extras.

fw190-japan-picture2-ww2shots-air_force

Some info on French production here Captured FW 190s

Admiral Beez · Feb 12, 2020

tomo pauk said:
The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

So, delete or re-engine everything that's not a Fw 190 from this list. BMW 801 - Wikipedia

tomo pauk · Feb 12, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
Send the tooling and drawings to Japan. Japan can make your thousands of extras.
fw190-japan-picture2-ww2shots-air_force
Some info on French production here Captured FW 190s

Japan making Fw 190 under licence (presumably using Japanese engines and guns) - I'm cool with that.

Admiral Beez said:
So, delete or re-engine everything that's not a Fw 190 from this list. BMW 801 - Wikipedia

No, not everything, the Do 217 will not work without either BMW 801 or something more powerful, like DB 603.
A good deal of DB engines is 'free' if the Me 210/410 is cancelled in very early on.

BTW - German Wikipedia gives less than half of produced BMW 801s vs. what English-language Wikipedia states; I believe the lower figure.

Admiral Beez · Feb 12, 2020

tomo pauk said:
Japan making Fw 190 under licence (presumably using Japanese engines and guns) - I'm cool with that.

Of course, if Japan is license building the BMW 801 there are many more Japanese applications that are also worthy.

tomo pauk · Feb 13, 2020

Admiral Beez said:
Of course, if Japan is license building the BMW 801 there are many more Japanese applications that are also worthy.

BMW 801 needed the 100 oct fuel (or water injection) and a lot of work to achieve it's potential in a reliable fashion, all while being very heavy. Japanese were making lighter engines that were close to BMW 801 in power, and could run at 91 or 92 oct fuel. The Ha-41/109 series and the Homare were even of smaller diameter.

tomo pauk · Feb 14, 2020

Some Japanese engines that might be a good, or perhaps a so-so fit for Fw 190 airframe; all of them have reliability at least as good as BMW 801 bar the Homare, and can run well on 91-92 oct fuel. For higher power levels water injection is needed, neither has the armored oil tank & cooler; 1-lever operation was on BMW 801 by default, unlike with Japanese engines. Power vs. altitude figures from Japanese sources (tables translated by Shinpachi).
- Ha 41: 1260 HP at 3700m; much lighter and a bit smaller than BMW 801; produced from 1940; worse exhausts than BMW, but probably better ram air intake; much lower power at lower altitudes;
- Ha 109: 1220 HP at 5200 m, 1440 HP at 2100 m; again smuch lighter and a bit smaller than BMW, with worse exhausts and better ram air intake; produced from (late?) 1941;
- Ha 45 Homare: 1460 HP at 5700m, 1650 HP at 2000 m (run at lower boost and 2900 rpm, Model 11 per Nakajima table); 1620 HP at 6100m, 1860 HP at 1700m (run at higher boost, at 3000 rpm, Model 21); in production from 1942?? (1943 probably?), never know for reliability, however very comparable with BMW 801D and 801S respectively in raw power; ~250 kg lighter than BMW and slightly smaller

- Kinsei: these are a bit of stretch, since only the 50 offer a meanigful power for a fighter. These offered 1100 HP at 6200m (production was from 1940??), and model 61 (1944? 45?; the one from Ki-100) gave 1250 HP at 6000m; low-alt power 1200-1350 HP. Water injection much improved the power under 5500m. Engine was much lighter than BMW 801, no surprises there. Turboed version was too late.
- Kasei: about same power as BMW 801, with similar production schedule, much lighter, can use water injection to overcome lack of hi-oct fuel from 20 series on. Versions with extended prop shaft were giving some troubles, and were a bit heavier than plain vanilla versions. 50mm greater diameter than BMW 801.
- Ha 42-11: 80mm greater diameter than BMW, (100 kg lighter?), power at altitude closer to the 801S than to the 801D, series production from 1944?

DerGiLLster · Mar 23, 2020

Just get rid of the Bf 109 after 1943. I would rather produce Fw 190Ds by that point.

swampyankee · Mar 24, 2020

tomo pauk said:
Or - how to have Germany make an extra 10000 of Fw 190s in the time of 1940-45? That is with campaigns/milestones of the war (BoB, OP Barbarossa, US entry in the war, invasions of Italy, German retreat from Soviet Union etc.) unfold pretty much as they did historically. Obvously, it will require robbing Paul (= not making something else, or change something else on production lines) to pay Paul (= make more 190s).

It is also required here that Bf 109 is produced in historical numbers at least. Ditto for night fighters and jet fighters. The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

They'd need to cut production of some other common aircraft. Possibly if they eliminate all bomber, maritime, and transport aircraft production.

30 000 Fw 190s - how?

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