30 000 Fw 190s - how?

[tomo pauk]

Just get rid of the Bf 109 after 1943. I would rather produce Fw 190Ds by that point.

I'd say there is a lot of less useful German aircraft than Bf 109 - talk the sorry saga of Me 210/410, or the He 177 program. Not making ~700 Me 210s = 1400 free DB 601E/605A engines; not making almost 1200 of Me 410s = almost 2400 free DB 603A engines. Of course, there is a lot of resources in airframes to be saved, too
Number of 'double' DB engines (606, 610) made mostly for He 177 program amounted to ~8400 before 1945 - that is worth 16800 (!) of 'single' engines (DB 601E, 605A).

They'd need to cut production of some other common aircraft. Possibly if they eliminate all bomber, maritime, and transport aircraft production.

As noted above - there is a lot of 'dead tree' to eliminate without the German war effort being negatively affected a single jota. Or, have Focke Wulf stop making the Bf 110s (345 made by them) earlier than historically.

 

[mack8]

Found this and wanted to chip in fwiw. I think we can get to 10,000. Using the simple rule one engine equal one aircraft, in rough numbers cancelling the Me-410* (2500 FW-190s), He-177 (5000), Hs-129 (1000), He-219 (500), Do-335 (a few tens/hundreds), perhaps the rest being added by the mass production efficiencies? As most of those types above were cancelled in 1944, presumably the factories would have been retooling for various fighters (and whether they started producing them by wars end is another matter that would be interesting to find out more) which took time, effort, resources, not to mention the increasingly chaotic situation, in this timeline the production will keep going. In fact it's likely we can get more than 10,000 if so?

We count the Ta-152s as FW-190s, right? Perhaps some of the late production can be Ta-152s.

As to engines, i try to keep the historical engine fits for them, so no DB-605 or Jumo-211 etc. We can get quite a few DB-603 powered FW-190Cs (the big winner from all this), but it's not enough so the way to get more engines is for DB to build more DB-603 as soon as ready instead of DB-605s (themselves being built instead of the DB-610 etc). Maybe the Ostmark factory is earmarked for DB-603s from the start?

Getting more BMW-801 engines i can do by using the 7000 Jumo-211 in depots to power more Ju-88 with them that in OTL used BMW-801 or Jumo-213 engines. They will have to do with lower performance. Not quite sure how many engines can be freed as not quite sure how many Jumo-213/BMW-801 powered Ju-88 were built, but as a maximum perhaps 4000 could (leaving the rest to 7000 as spares).

The somewhat lower number of bombers can at least partially be compensated by having stronger escorts for them in daytime at least, with all these extra FW-190s around, besides some of these (1/3rd?) FW-190s would be Jabos as well.

Especially the FW-190Cs in significant numbers will make life harder for the USAAF/RAF, plus there would be more 190Ds too, maybe a fairly significant number of Ta-152s as well.

* including cancelling the Me-210 but that really means more Me-110 built instead, perhaps including the anywhere from 1000 to 2000 loss in production due to the Me-210 debacle (very useful to fill any reduction in nightfighter numbers if any) which is not the theme here.

 

[tomo pauk]

As to engines, i try to keep the historical engine fits for them, so no DB-605 or Jumo-211 etc.

You are certainly free to use DB 601E and/or DB 605A on the 190s.
The 605AS(M) and 605D will be a very good fit.

 

[nuuumannn]

'd say there is a lot of less useful German aircraft than Bf 109 - talk the sorry saga of Me 210/410, or the He 177 program. Not making ~700 Me 210s = 1400 free DB 601E/605A engines; not making almost 1200 of Me 410s = almost 2400 free DB 603A engines. Of course, there is a lot of resources in airframes to be saved, too
Number of 'double' DB engines (606, 610) made mostly for He 177 program amounted to ~8400 before 1945 - that is worth 16800 (!) of 'single' engines (DB 601E, 605A).

The problem here is that the He 177 was the designated replacement for the He 111 as the Luftwaffe's standard bomber. That the He 177 turned out to be a big disaster was a rolling series of failures over time, so cancelling the Bomber A programme sooner has to become a priority to avoid a wastage of effort and resources. That leaves the LW without a suitable (as it was in the He 177's case) replacement in the works. Not a good position for the LW to be in, so what gets sacrificed, future heavy bombers to concentrate on fighter production? Again, such a decision is dependent on time, when this decision to focus on the Fw 190 happens but still leaves gaping holes in capability down the line. Again, does Bomber B go? In hindsight, it definitely should. It was an overreach for the German industry on top of everything else going on and the RLM simply was not organised enough to manage these programmes effectively.

This also depends on the organisational power of the RLM. In Britain, the tough-talking Minister of Aircraft Production Lord Beaverbrook got his way through sheer bullishness and he wasn't afraid of upsetting whomever to get what he wanted. It worked though, Britain's production of priority equipment meant that in November 1940 the RAF had more Spitfires and Hurricanes than it began the Battle of Britain with, having replaced all its losses and increased standing numbers. The German industry simply could not keep up with all the losses the LW suffered in the Summer of 1940.

The RLM has to reinvent its production priorities and structure to resemble something more workable. It needs decisive and knowledgeable leadership. It did not have that in Goering, who was simply unwilling to admit to the failures that the Luftwaffe suffered during the Summer of 1940. In 1943, when he had a rant at his senior industry personnel at Karinhall, that famous tirade that produced the oft-quoted tid-bit of what he thought of the Mosquito, those in attendance all shrugged their shoulders and blamed everyone else for the issues besetting their programmes. Willy Messerschmitt and the Me 210 debacle, the engine designers, all of them. It was everyone else's fault. Bear in mind this kind of thing was encouraged by the Fuhrer himself. There was a lot of personal empire-building. Unity and a singular sense of purpose did not exist in Hitler's Germany.

 

[Denniss]

Without the He 177 they would only have the Do 217 as heavy-ish bomber. With DB 603 and extended wings it was actually not bad. This arrangement would free 801s for the Fw 190.
What the 801-powered Fw 190 absolutely need is the single exhaust per cylinder and the option to install external air intakes, possibly trying to reduce power usage of the fan.
He 111 production could be reduced in 42 and dropped in 43 and either switched to Ju88/188 or to Fw190.
Same with He177 production facilities (Heinkel Oranienburg, Arado Brandenburg) - either Ju88/188 or Fw190

 

[tomo pauk]

The problem here is that the He 177 was the designated replacement for the He 111 as the Luftwaffe's standard bomber. That the He 177 turned out to be a big disaster was a rolling series of failures over time, so cancelling the Bomber A programme sooner has to become a priority to avoid a wastage of effort and resources. That leaves the LW without a suitable (as it was in the He 177's case) replacement in the works. Not a good position for the LW to be in, so what gets sacrificed, future heavy bombers to concentrate on fighter production? Again, such a decision is dependent on time, when this decision to focus on the Fw 190 happens but still leaves gaping holes in capability down the line. Again, does Bomber B go? In hindsight, it definitely should. It was an overreach for the German industry on top of everything else going on and the RLM simply was not organised enough to manage these programmes effectively.

He 177 have had an in-built failure - use of coupled engines. That means that whole program was dependent on these engines working flawlessly, since there was no in-slot replacement if these fail.
The 177 should've been designed with 4 individual engines (who cares if it is slower by 10 km/h that way), so there is more leeway. Preferably with 4 Jumo 211s, so there is more DB 601s/605s for the fighters. It does not get them a rocket ship, but it should mean that they have an actually useful bomber instead of hangar queen.

What the 801-powered Fw 190 absolutely need is the single exhaust per cylinder and the option to install external air intakes, possibly trying to reduce power usage of the fan.

Option for the external air intakes was there for the 190s, it was not proceeded with apart for few prototypes/modified 'normal' 190s. Most of the exhausts on the 801 were single, it was just one pair that was welded together.
Good call on the need to reduce the power of the fan - perhaps use slower gearing, once the engine is debugged? Halving the power needed = leaves about 35 PS down low, and perhaps 20 at the rated altitude? BMW and FW need probably to tackle the forced cooing via use of exhaust gasses, despite the good results of the experiments undertaken.
What the 801 needed, IMO, was sorting out it's supercharger for the mass use.

 

[mack8]

You are certainly free to use DB 601E and/or DB 605A on the 190s.
The 605AS(M) and 605D will be a very good fit.

Well, that's just me tending to stick as closely as reasonably possible to OTL configurations.

I'd say there is a lot of less useful German aircraft than Bf 109 - talk the sorry saga of Me 210/410, or the He 177 program. Not making ~700 Me 210s = 1400 free DB 601E/605A engines; not making almost 1200 of Me 410s = almost 2400 free DB 603A engines. Of course, there is a lot of resources in airframes to be saved, too
Number of 'double' DB engines (606, 610) made mostly for He 177 program amounted to ~8400 before 1945 - that is worth 16800 (!) of 'single' engines (DB 601E, 605A).

Can i ask where did you have the figure of 8400 DB-606/610 made? I did came across some production figures some time ago but iirc the total was in the region of 3000 or so, sufficient to power 1200 He-177s plus some spares. If your figures are correct that would show even more how incredibly wasteful the He-177 was. That figure of 16,800 potential normal DB-601/605s is quite incredible.

Also re the Me-210 we can factor in the production loss due to it's failure which cost anywhere from 1000 to 2000 aircraft, presumably twins, or perhas a mixed loss of Me-110 and Ju-87s, which dropped sharply in poduction numbers in 1941-42 if i'm not mistaken?

 

[tomo pauk]

Can i ask where did you have the figure of 8400 DB-606/610 made? I did came across some production figures some time ago but iirc the total was in the region of 3000 or so, sufficient to power 1200 He-177s plus some spares. If your figures are correct that would show even more how incredibly wasteful the He-177 was. That figure of 16,800 potential normal DB-601/605s is quite incredible.

The post-war table compiled, a part of the "BIOS final report 35" that was posted on the AEHS web site; Calum also posted this somewhere in the net, IIRC. Says that 1088 of DB 606s was made, and 7312 (!!) of DB 610s.
Looking again at these figures, especially the 1944 production of supposedly 3158 of 610s, it seemed to me that someone made a mistake counting these numbers, or made a typo. However, a look at the German engine production graph made by the USSBS does show that 5-6 months in 1944 the monthly production was 400-500 pcs of the 610s, the production all but ending in July 1944.
It is very much possible that these engines ended up used in the Bf 109 production, once the bombers' production met an unexpected end in 1944.

Also re the Me-210 we can factor in the production loss due to it's failure which cost anywhere from 1000 to 2000 aircraft, presumably twins, or perhas a mixed loss of Me-110 and Ju-87s, which dropped sharply in poduction numbers in 1941-42 if i'm not mistaken?

Lacking detailed report on materials used but not actually ending up on a finalized aircraft, it is hard to pinpoint the ballpark of cost in A/C not manufactured. Plus, it is not like the workers slated for the Me 210 production just sat down when there was pause on the program.

Well, that's just me tending to stick as closely as reasonably possible to OTL configurations.

Think big

 

[mack8]

On production figures, I KNOW i have on my computer a file i believe from a USSBS report showing destroyer production by month/year which they class as Me-110, 210, 410, Ju-87 etc. But for the life of me, i can't find it now. Do you know by any chance what i'm talking about? I keep downloading interesting stuff, name it so i know what it is, and then forget the friggin name.

I googled the details you gave re the BIOS report no.35, but i only came with these figures. Is this the one you had in mind?

WW2 German Engine Prouction

 

[tomo pauk]

I googled the details you gave re the BIOS report no.35, but i only came with these figures. Is this the one you had in mind?
WW2 German Engine Prouction

No, not that one.

 

[mack8]

Well, i can't seem to be able to find the file you refer to, but i found this www discussion on the matter, so perhaps those numbers do for some reason refer to each 601/605 in the doppelmotor, so they should be divided by two. Makes much more sense that way imo? That would make 544 DB-606 and 3156 DB-610?

Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production - Page 2 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Page 2- Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

forum.12oclockhigh.net

 

[tomo pauk]

Well, i can't seem to be able to find the file you refer to, but i found this www discussion on the matter, so perhaps those numbers do for some reason refer to each 601/605 in the doppelmotor, so they should be divided by two. Makes much more sense that way imo? That would make 544 DB-606 and 3156 DB-610?

It is very much possible that someone over-counted the engines. You know what M. Twain says about statistics, after all

 

[mack8]

I did found the figures in question here (linked from the forum above).

Muzeum Lotnictwa Polskiego w Krakowie

Seems 99.9% this is what happened, so we're looking at 8000 plus freed DB-601/605s (assuming there are still some doppel prototypes), still a big number,

 

[nuuumannn]

The 177 should've been designed with 4 individual engines (who cares if it is slower by 10 km/h that way), so there is more leeway.

Yes, you are right and the He 274 was an attempt at doing so, but the prototype was not complete before the end of the war. As you know, France resurrected the aircraft post-war. This of course is the issue, the decision to do this needs to be made right from the start to be resource effective otherwise you are wasting time and energy on the He 177 as it was. The engines were not the only issue affecting the He 177. It was a maintenance hog and raids using service examples never were able to offer really useful numbers of aircraft because of grounded machines for maintenance reasons. In short, the He 177 should not be allowed to start, let alone continue, but that comes with a lot of crystal ball gazing.

 

[Engineman]

The double engine DB 606 and DB 610 motors did add up to about 4,210 double engines total production. That equates to about 8,420 component engines in the period 1941 to mid 1944. The actual drain on single engine equivalent production is probably more than 8,420 though, because the right hand component engine was mostly a "mirror image" engine and needed different production tooling and more work. In fact, there were many differences compared to the basic single engine, even a different firing order.
Some DB 610 left hand ( DB 605 X ) engines were rebuilt as DB 605 A engines with the different firing order. However, most of the RH (DB 605 W engines) would only provide some spare parts due to their mirror build. Bearing in mind the consumption of engines over the long period of the He 177 program, I would guess that only some 500 or so DB 605 engines were recovered, out of the 1,500 DB 610 engines built in 1944 before the program was scrapped. The amount of component recovery from the other parts of the DB 610 engines is unknown.

Eng

 

[Denniss]

The ex-DB610 engines are known to have been installed in Bf 109s, they had a big red warning band added informing about the different firing order

View: https://youtu.be/lEQ4ER0bySg?feature=shared&t=55

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes, you are right and the He 274 was an attempt at doing so, but the prototype was not complete before the end of the war. As you know, France resurrected the aircraft post-war. This of course is the issue, the decision to do this needs to be made right from the start to be resource effective otherwise you are wasting time and energy on the He 177 as it was. The engines were not the only issue affecting the He 177. It was a maintenance hog and raids using service examples never were able to offer really useful numbers of aircraft because of grounded machines for maintenance reasons. In short, the He 177 should not be allowed to start, let alone continue, but that comes with a lot of crystal ball gazing.

Yes, for a He 177 to make sense, it needs to be designed with 4 separate engines from day one. Granted, even such bombers will still require escort.

 

[Engineman]

The ex-DB610 engines are known to have been installed in Bf 109s, they had a big red warning band added informing about the different firing order

View: https://youtu.be/lEQ4ER0bySg?feature=shared&t=55

Yes, even more interesting is, that rebuilt DB 610 engine, is rebuilt as a DB 605 AS version. A pity that the recovery team do not show the engine data plate.
Who knows how to tell that engine is an AS from the pics? Post if you know!

Eng

 

[tomo pauk]

Who knows how to tell that engine is an AS from the pics? Post if you know!

Big supercharger should be a giveaway.
side elevation of the 605A
The Bf 109s with teh AS engines also required the curved engine bearer arm, see here.

Granted, the 605D looked a lot like the 605AS.

Unfortunately, the engine in the video seems like it lost it's S/C. OTOH, if the Wnr. of the aircraft is known, this might also give the clue about the engine version used.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Or - how to have Germany make an extra 10000 of Fw 190s in the time of 1940-45? That is with campaigns/milestones of the war (BoB, OP Barbarossa, US entry in the war, invasions of Italy, German retreat from Soviet Union etc.) unfold pretty much as they did historically. Obvously, it will require robbing Paul (= not making something else, or change something else on production lines) to pay Paul (= make more 190s).

It is also required here that Bf 109 is produced in historical numbers at least. Ditto for night fighters and jet fighters. The number of BMW 801 engines produced is as historical, too.

You need a lot more C3 fuel early on, otherwise it doesnt even matter if you make them. In fact Petersen (KdE Rechlin) stated that the Fw190 production had been capped at a set level for exactly this reason.