FW-190 and The Battle of Britain

[Admiral Beez]

They did well with Junkers Jumo 213s. Anything with a Jumo 211 went 30-40mph slower than stuff DB601 powered.

Nevertheless, if we can't have the DB 601 and the BMW 801 is not ready, then it must be the Jumo for the early Fw 190.

Perhaps the Jumo 211 Fw 190 can be given the Mitsubishi A6M treatment of stripping weight.

But really, the Bf 109E is fine as the universal Luftwaffe fighter until the Fw 190 enters service in 1941-42.

 

[JuniorJarhead09]

We know the famous prototype photos and BMW-139 issues. Contact the Japanese get some engines shipped over while also building the BMW-800 series.

When engines are 400+ lbs lighter with radials. Also have a scaled down bmw800 to have on a trainer that flys like the 190.

DB Series Development probably increases due to allowing FW-190 to also have a DB option from the outset.
Learn what you can from the Japanese and apply it.

Also increase research on 2 stage with the me-109 drive added.

Change metallurgy to allow for mw-50.
190A4 with MW-50 done proper would be the most dangerous fighter to face in WW2 at the time. Considering the Weight Gains from A-5.


I would've wanted Fw-190 F series types built along with the A-series. Have radials in all F's but the A's C's

A-Series all around
F-Series for ground
C-Series for escort and intercept
D-Still the King.

It will create better continuity.

At BOB it would escort "to the cliffs of Dover" and stay over water. The 109s would stay up higher and out of combat until over land thus saving fuel.
EVERYONE is carrying drop tanks. Range is range and I'll take a pilot over FUEL any day of the week.

Besides you could end up dropping tanks over industrial or military targets increasing hazards

 

[GTX]

About the only advantage an early Fw190 might have had over/in addition to the Bf109s would have been the greater range of the Fw190. That said, I still think it would not have made a significant difference if the tactics for use remained unchanged.

 

[tomo pauk]

We know the famous prototype photos and BMW-139 issues. Contact the Japanese get some engines shipped over while also building the BMW-800 series.

What Japanese engines might've helped in 1939 to mid-1941? Or in 1939-40, if we just focus on the BoB?

When engines are 400+ lbs lighter with radials.

What does this mean?

Also have a scaled down bmw800 to have on a trainer that flys like the 190.

How should the 'scaled down BMW800' (I guess you mean 801, not 800?) look like?

DB Series Development probably increases due to allowing FW-190 to also have a DB option from the outset.
Learn what you can from the Japanese and apply it.

Having the early Fw 190 designed around the DB engines means that there is no need for the Japanese engines, IMO.

At BOB it would escort "to the cliffs of Dover" and stay over water. The 109s would stay up higher and out of combat until over land thus saving fuel.
EVERYONE is carrying drop tanks. Range is range and I'll take a pilot over FUEL any day of the week.

Having enough of fuel is what made the long-range escort possible. Pilot's, good as they were, were still limited by the short range, and RAF was smart enough and capable enough to tackle LW bombers within the escort range, let alone away from the escort range of the 109s.
The DB-powered 190 would've have better range than the 109 with same engine.

About the only advantage an early Fw190 might have had over/in addition to the Bf109s would have been the greater range of the Fw190. That said, I still think it would not have made a significant difference if the tactics for use remained unchanged.

Greater range is a major thing.
Some other advantages of the DB-powered 190 vs. the Emil:
- lower drag (especially if the initial small wing is retained) for better speed and mileage
- rate of roll
- better cockpit & canopy/visibility
- better undercarriage
- greater volume for extra weapons + ammo

The last 4 characteristics are retained vs. the 109F and G.

 

[Airborne2001]

What sort of engine would the Fw190 have had in in 1940? The BMW801 was not reliable in 1941.

Well, there is the BMW 139, but as later comments have pointed out it was not the most reliable engine nor did it have as much development potential as the BMW 801. If the Fw-190 entered service with this engine, then it would've been a shorter wing version given the lower-weight of the BMW 139.

EDIT: The smaller wings could've in turn caused problems with range, an already big problem during the time.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

German air superiority over the Channel would allow LW bombers to either a) intervene against a very heavy Royal Navy intervention or b) give ground support to German forces landed ashore; but they're not going to be able to both.

Not sure that He111s or Do17s would impress battleships or heavy cruisers that much, nor be able to hit destroyers. Surviving RAF fighters could be pulled back, and see how bombers may or may not perform against the warships. If they choose to attack warships, okay, but they can't do doctrinal missions like supporting the Heer in the field.

Not like Germany's aerial torpedoes were great in this timeframe, as well. In short, the LW would have a hard time stopping, I dunno, 60 or so destroyers, a dozen cruisers, and ten or so armored capital ships, with very little help from a crippled Kriegsmarine, no matter the quality of their fighters.

We're talking 1940. Level bombers hitting moving ships, good luck with that. Stukas can sink destroyers and cruisers, but you've only got about 300 of them to attack about 100 RN light/medium vessels.

 

[tomo pauk]

Well, there is the BMW 139, but as later comments have pointed out it was not the most reliable engine nor did it have as much development potential as the BMW 801. If the Fw-190 entered service with this engine, then it would've been a shorter wing version given the lower-weight of the BMW 139.

The Fw 190 with a down-rated BMW 139 (so the worst engine problems are not that likely to happen) might've been a food for a good what-if timeline.

EDIT: The smaller wings could've in turn caused problems with range, an already big problem during the time.

How do you figure that smaller wings would've caused problems with range?

 

[Airborne2001]

The Fw 190 with a down-rated BMW 139 (so the worst engine problems are not that likely to happen) might've been a food for a good what-if timeline.



How do you figure that smaller wings would've caused problems with range?

I'm moreso just going off of the simple "small wing = less space for fuel tanks" stereotype, though admittedly I do not know the most about the prototypes fuel tank space in the wings.

 

[Shortround6]

Fw-190 didn't carry fuel in either the outer wings or the wing roots.

 

[JuniorJarhead09]

Focke-Wulf is a Cavalry Officer. He wants his pilots to get home.

2 things the Reich Air Ministry messed up was discontinuing the FW-187, kept building Me-110's-410's.

That's more engines for FW-190….. I know it's not as easy as "hey put 109 style nose on a 190 and see what happens."

Imagine a 190A-4 with a DB in 1942 WITH MW-50.

Simplifying the Air Force will help, it will also increase quality and in a certain expect quantity.

The Dora was an Inline.

You have FW-187s with radials……

Have an alternative the the BMW-800 series as they were heavy and consumed man hours. Introduced in 1941, peaked in 1943/1944. It was a way to get a 1500-1600 HP engine into service despite potential being loss down the line. Remember DBs were doing 1200ish HP at the time.

I always said what if Germany had the Homare with 2K HP at 3K RPM….. now you have a more powerful lighter engine that's going to save fuel. You can 1,000kg in weight easily on the aircraft maybe including fuel.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Focke-Wulf is a Cavalry Officer. He wants his pilots to get home.

2 things the Reich Air Ministry messed up was discontinuing the FW-187, kept building Me-110's-410's.

That's more engines for FW-190….. I know it's not as easy as "hey put 109 style nose on a 190 and see what happens."

Imagine a 190A-4 with a DB in 1942 WITH MW-50.

Simplifying the Air Force will help, it will also increase quality and in a certain expect quantity.

The Dora was an Inline.

You have FW-187s with radials……

Have an alternative the the BMW-800 series as they were heavy and consumed man hours. Introduced in 1941, peaked in 1943/1944. It was a way to get a 1500-1600 HP engine into service despite potential being loss down the line. Remember DBs were doing 1200ish HP at the time.

I always said what if Germany had the Homare with 2K HP at 3K RPM….. now you have a more powerful lighter engine that's going to save fuel. You can 1,000kg in weight easily on the aircraft maybe including fuel.

Watch it. The Homare did 2000HP with water methanol injection. The BMW801 did 1700HP without.

 

[Zmauky]

So this is what iff, and the Fw 190 is not married to BMW and BMW is not sole radial engine manufacturer in Germany.

Somehow it always seemed to me that Bramo (Siemens Halske) had a better (or more focused) development team.
The fact is that the komandogeratt (ie all engine controls on one lever) and the entire BMW 003 engine came under BMW with the unification of BMW + Bramo. Not to mention the two-speed supercharger and MW on (some) Bramo 323s.

Maybe BMW wasted too much time and energy on their V-12s ( BMW 116 and 117). Bramo worked on Bramo 329 (aka Sh29), a two-row 14 cylinder, with a power output of 1400hp and Bramo 300, a two-row 18 cylinder 2000hp and on experiments in rotary/conical valves. Perhaps, without the (forced) unification of BMW + Bramo, we would be discussing the Fw 190 with a Bramo engine.

And BMW..? Well, considering the BMW VI... it would probably be better if instead of the V-12 counterparts (I'm thinking of the BMW 116 and 117) for the Jumo 210 and DB 601/Jumo 211 they went and designed a 45 liter V-12 (which would probably fit perfectly in the Fw 190C ). After all, where did Mikulin start from (BMW VI).

After all, the Nakajima Ha-5 / Ha-41 / Ha-109 series started on the basis of the Jupiter (also roots of Bramo 323 and presumably 329) as early as late 1933. We don't know much about the Bramo 329 (at least I do not), but Nakajima's story says something.

So a BOB with a Fw 190/Bramo 329 of 1400-1500 hp is not terribly unthinkable.

 

[JuniorJarhead09]

Watch it. The Homare did 2000HP with water methanol injection. The BMW801 did 1700HP without.

What about the weight saved? Weren't Japanese using lower octane?

 

[JuniorJarhead09]

Let's not add 2+2 and arrive at 5.
BMW 139 was offering, at 4.5km, ~400 HP more than the DB 601A and ~500 HP more than the Jumo 211A. Or about 40-50% more power. And also much more of the exhaust thrust. All without the weight penalty, so there was a lot of reasoning that Tank went for the 139.
Little Tank knew that the BMW 139 would prove to be an unreliable mess.



It was of the same displacement as the BMW 801, ie. 42 liters.
The BMW 801 was a full redesign of the 139, with the 'normal' layout of the crankshaft and bearings, that pushed up both length and weight. It indeed worked, even if that was not a given in 1939-41.

How would have redesigned the 139 to make it reliable.

How would you have redesigned the 801 to make it lighter?


They started and stopped multiple programs, what if they don't stop? DB gets more advanced quicker, 800 gets developed quicker, maybe jumo gets better support on jet engines. Maybe the Arado becomes the Jet Bomber in 1940 instead of Hienkel and Dornier. Now you might not need escorts or nearly as many as the Bombers will outrun the fighters. Especially with night bombing, which you do straight away in BoB.

Now 109s and 190's can Patrol and keep away the Royal Navy farther from France and Germany with the Drop Tanks at least potentially. Blockading can be more difficult.

 

[tomo pauk]

How would have redesigned the 139 to make it reliable.

Same as BMW did, arriving at 801.

How would you have redesigned the 801 to make it lighter?

Engines never get really lighter, at least not the mainstream types we talk about here.
Germans can have an equivalent to the '801 lite' once they conquer France and have the G&R 14R on their hands. Luckily, they made a mistake by not making these in numbers.

The changes the BMW 801 might've used in 1940 and beyond will be the nickel-plated valves (with the blessing of RLM so that engine companies can have the nickel they needed), the much improved spark plugs, and an improved S/C.

They started and stopped multiple programs, what if they don't stop? DB gets more advanced quicker, 800 gets developed quicker, maybe jumo gets better support on jet engines. Maybe the Arado becomes the Jet Bomber in 1940 instead of Hienkel and Dornier. Now you might not need escorts or nearly as many as the Bombers will outrun the fighters. Especially with night bombing, which you do straight away in BoB.

There is a lot to unpack there.
DB will still be hampered by the lack of nickel (that is on RLM) and the oil system plagued due to not having the centrifuge to get rid of oil foaming (DB is the guilty part here; BMW was also burning the midnight oil with that for the 139 and 801 before 1941).
The earlier BMW 800 is cancelled, the better.
Jet engines in 1940 in combat aircraft - now that is pure fantasy, and very far from the scope of this thread.
Yes, earlier night bombing might've worked better than the historical early bombing of the UK.

 

[z42]

Maybe BMW wasted too much time and energy on their V-12s ( BMW 116 and 117).

AFAIU BMW was pretty focused on inlines, until the RLM told them to switch to radials. Maybe it was a prudent insurance policy (what if radials pulled clearly ahead and we have all our eggs in the liquid cooled inline basket? Oops..), but it did mean they had some catching up to do.

But yes, an interesting what-if if they continue with their inlines and don't touch radials. Or DB doesn't pause the 603 project? Could we have a long nosed 190 in 1940/41?

 

[tomo pauk]

AFAIU BMW was pretty focused on inlines, until the RLM told them to switch to radials. Maybe it was a prudent insurance policy (what if radials pulled clearly ahead and we have all our eggs in the liquid cooled inline basket? Oops..), but it did mean they had some catching up to do.

But yes, an interesting what-if if they continue with their inlines and don't touch radials.

Having BMW make a ~40L V12 engine would've probably been a boon to the Luftwaffe.

Or DB doesn't pause the 603 project? Could we have a long nosed 190 in 1940/41?

Probably in 1941?