4-engined bomber for 1943-44

No intention to be insulting, and if so I'm sorry... But a little derogatory, well yes, and why not. As long as it bears a minimum of truth yet remains within an obviously lightly toned sentence... I did not suspect that the word 'Japs' had that negative aura on it, just thought it casual.
And certainly do not conceal my admiration to Japan's aeronautical production.
Also getting a bit tired if not entirely fed-up with the mendatory over-cautiousness ruling over every contemporary human oh so 'electric' exchanges, as if we were all paranoid chickens in the barn or something. Having to adress our next of kin like some Turkish ambassador of sort while picking the packet of noodles in the supermarket, or the gas nozzle at the filling station, just in case anything else could be mistaken. I can forsee the day when we in France will be forced by law to wear fluorescent yellow jackets even for pedestrians - this is already true for cyclists - especially when venturing out of dedicated and rebuilt, painted and accordignly signalized 'new norms' pedestrian corridors... Please understand context.
Besides, would one be so touchy when 'describing' some Hitlerian decision making folk or, worse, some Göringesque traits ?

Thanks for the info anyway.

l'Omnivore Sobriquet said:

No intention to be insulting, and if so I'm sorry... But a little derogatory, well yes, and why not. As long as it bears a minimum of truth yet remains within an obviously lightly toned sentence... I did not suspect that the word 'Japs' had that negative aura on it, just thought it casual.
And certainly do not conceal my admiration to Japan's aeronautical production.
Also getting a bit tired if not entirely fed-up with the mendatory over-cautiousness ruling over every contemporary human oh so 'electric' exchanges, as if we were all paranoid chickens in the barn or something. Having to adress our next of kin like some Turkish ambassador of sort while picking the packet of noodles in the supermarket, or the gas nozzle at the filling station, just in case anything else could be mistaken. I can forsee the day when we in France will be forced by law to wear fluorescent yellow jackets even for pedestrians - this is already true for cyclists - especially when venturing out of dedicated and rebuilt, painted and accordignly signalized 'new norms' pedestrian corridors... Please understand context.
Besides, would one be so touchy when 'describing' some Hitlerian decision making folk or, worse, some Göringesque traits ?

Thanks for the info anyway.

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I,..., uh,...., think that I agree with this.

michaelmaltby said:

... and 'Brits' ...

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You mean "Limeys"?

i never thought of it as a derogatory term and never used it as such. that doesnt mean someone might not take it that way. being the lazy @$$ i am i shorten proper names and use them....brits, yanks, croas, slavs, poles...etc. when i want to be derogatory there will be little doubt that i am...

Hello. This is my first post and it seems I am resurrecting a dead thread.

I chose germany and Do-217 for basis of new 4 engine bomber (in fact i am thinking more in line of Do-317B). Instead pair of coupled 605s, I would use four jumo turbo charged diesels, two engines in tandem, like dornier already did on do-26 flying boat, except rear propeller shafts would not move up and down a bit like done in Do-26 installation. I think late jumo 208s gives 1500 hp max. power, that matches the power of 605 (earlier modification of bigger displacement jumo 204 with turbo would be better). Tandem installation creates even less drag and maybe one turbo set for both engines might be possible (which powered by exhaust of two engines) in order to save materiel. If it's possible, I would like to stretch fuselage a bit, like they did on ju-88H, Germans were able to stretch ju-88 some 3 meters without adversely affecting flight characteristics and about the same amount would be fine for Do-317. Wiki says Do-317 with coupled engines could carry over 9 tons of ordinance and estimated to have 670 km/h speed. I don't know where all those ordnance could be carried or even if those specs are true but if they are true, stretched fuselage should carry even more (I am thinking about more fuel and if that weighs the a/c down too much, it could use RATO in overload situation). With turbos Do-317 should be able to cruise at high altitudes, so a pressurized cockpit and longer wing might be necessary, and in order to compansate added weight of longer wing+fuselage maybe a structural beefing up. On the other hand, Do-217 planned as a limited dive bomber, so there could already be a margin in structural strength. It would be a very fast bomber which rely on speed and altitude for defense, so I think only a pair of remote controlled 13mm.s on tail would be enough for weapon configuration. Omitting the rear facing gondola and upper rear facing machine gun would make it even more streamlined and faster. Over 700 km/h speeds might be possible, matching best fighters of the day, especially considering it could fly at high altitudes where the air is thinner. And thanks to diesel engines, low drag and extraordinary payload, it must have a very good range, I didn't calculated but maybe even a trip to east coast of USA possible in theory.

Diesel fuel wouldn't put a strain on highly demanded AV-gas resources, so unlike He-177, Do-317 diesel version may not have to sit idle, doing nothing on air fields towards the end of the war. It might use most of the Do-217 components already in production. Possible uses are against soviet industry or powerplants, high altitude recon over britain, recon over atlantic (although altitude requirement is hardly necessary for this task, long range would come handy while 317 being cheaper than ju 290 and also possibly cheaper than He-177, plus 217 is already able to carry guided bombs). Probably a stretch but it may even be used as a super heavy fighter against bomber formations while they're just climbing to altitude from airfields in Britain and their escorts didn't formed yet, although that tactic depends on initial surprise factor and probably not usable more than once or twice, maybe with long ranged radars more than couple of times against night bombers? Ju388 would be a better candidate for this task but Do-317 with 2x2 tandem engines might be even faster, especially with tandem Jumo213s. More likely German leadership would try to use them as revenge weapons to bomb British cities from high altitudes and it might pull that off well.

My design proposal is somewhat similar to Ju-488 Project. When you think about it, they already had a pretty fast, heavy-ish bomber already in mass production, why not stretch it a bit with 4 seperate engines (not necessarily with tandem or diesel configuration) and go with it instead put an effort to create frankenstein's monster 488? Makes you wonder.

Sorry for my bad English.

edit: tandem engines in single nacelle doesn't allow necessary space for undercarriage in normal landing gear location of historical do2-317. So u/c must placed inside fuselage, Ar-234 style, tricycle arrangement.

The Vickers Windsor would have been suitable for the 1943-1944 service entry timeframe as it was test flown beginning in late 1943 and was the biggest bomber aircraft Vickers ever built. The Victory Bomber could have been designed for deployment in 1943-1944, because it was a bigger plane than the Lancaster, Halifax, and Stirling.

wuzak said:

I'm thinking of something along these lines:

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http://i.pbase.com/o4/30/511730/1/64601170.GoVGFvIY.webConvair.jpg

I think the aerodynamics would have been possible in the development phase. The big problem is the engines. Possibly the most powerful/reliable engines in production at the time would be the R-2800. Not sure if they are enough to power such a large aircraft.

The only aspect I wouldn't think could be applied is the nacelles. They were developed from experience which wasn't available in the period when the design needs to be commenced.

Merlins aren't strong enough. Maybe Griffons - 2 stage ones for better high altitude work, maybe turbocharged (I know not historically done). Alternative engines I would push for altitude versions of the Sabre, possibly turbocharged, and would encourage Allison to develop the V-3420. So you have 3 possibilities there, in case one or more fails.

I would drop the pointed nose, and opt for a more traditional flight deck. I would tend to keep the aircraft unarmed, or just limit the armament to a rear firing 20mm cannon, controlled remotely.

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These photos are not of a bomber, but instead of the Republic XF-12 Rainbow prototype photo-reconnaissance plane. Along with the XF-11, it would have been a photo recce platform for the planned Allied invasion of Japan, Operation Coronet, but like the XF-11, never entered production.

He was pointing out the aerodynamics of the Rainbow, not it being a bomber