50s aircraft that originated during World War II

[BiffF15]

Don't forget that much of the rapid progress in aircraft development postwar was due to captured German wind tunnel data that were not available to the genius British and US designers before May 1945 - Germany had six supersonic wind tunnels and all of the Allied powers combined exactly none. The MiG 15 was apparently based on German last-minute designs.

As concerns the "intractable" engine issues of the Me262: the German jet engines were under constant development, they would have become better in time (refined compressors and combustors), even if their life would still have been better counted in minutes - a question of available materials, especially a lack of Nickel.

As to the comparison of "Winkle" Brown and Chuck Yaeger - Yaeger had a vastly greater ego, in my opinion he was a glory seeker and self-aggrandizer who never left out an opportunity to dump on other pilots; in his autobiography he is uncharacteristically coy about how many of his combat sorties over Germany consisted of machine-gunning civilians.
Brown was a modest guy who did his work without tooting his own horn, but who flew under wartime conditions a large number of widely differing planes, frequently from carriers. Would Chucky have been able to land a Mossie or a Vampire on a carrier in 1945, if given the chance?

Mike mike,

Out of curiosity, did the German War machine need supersonic wind tunnels to make offensive or defensive weapons? I would think the Allies were looking to end a war they knew they were going to win, and Germany was looking for the "Hail Mary" weapon to maybe win a war they knew they were going to lose. The Allies would get there with or without the Germans, but if the data is available of course it's going to get taken. And no one will pay the first bit of royalties/ patent fees most likely either. I would classify that under the cost of doing business (starting a war and then losing it).

Almost everything used in combat, from the training the soldiers received, fuel, weapons ( except the mighty Ground Hog), for almost the duration of the war Was improved, to include how it was used.

As for the Winkle versus Yeager, what's your point? Yeager had a reputation for being an ass, but a very good flyer. Winkle appears to have been quite a like able guy who could also fly well. One was more heavily biased in combat, the other in testing.

As for war atrocities I don't think anyone will argue that they occurred. I also don't think anyone will argue the Germans had a bout a SIX MILLION person lead in that category by the time they threw in the flag…

Just things to think about.

Biff

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The MiG 15 was apparently based on German last-minute designs.

Yes and no -

Aside from aerodynamics, a big challenge faced during the development of the MiG-15 was finding the right engine, that was remedied by the British.

The Soviets were initially interested in getting a jet into the air quickly and were going to use German designed engines. Explore the development of the MiG-9 and Yak-15 as well as the Lavochkin La-150/152.

Many think the reason why the Me262 had swept back wings was for speed enhancement when in actually it was to assist in gaining a favorable center of gravity. This is well documented in many "quality" books about the -262. The Soviets were looking at the advantages of swept wing configuration as early as 1945 with the development of the MiG-8 and further research (as well as captured German technical publications) revealed the advantages of using a swept wing on a turbine combat aircraft.

We know the US and USSR exploited captured German technology and no doubt that technology inspired post war designs, but to an extent the degree of German influence in post war design has been a bit exaggerated with regards to fighter aircraft. The allies were coming close to matching German technology and just needed a catalyst to put all together. I've worked on MiG-15s and I can tell you that as far as there construction, there was no huge technology jump (outside the propulsion system) that cast it miles ahead of any other WW2 fighter.

So at the end of the day you really can't say that the MiG-15 (Or the F-86 for that matter) was "based" on German designs or a single German design but rather a hodgepodge of captured German technology incorporated into existing designs and in many cases improved upon.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I also don't think anyone will argue the Germans had a bout a SIX MILLION person lead in that category by the time they through in the flag…

Actually about eleven million when you add in the non-Jews encamped and then murdered.

 

[GrauGeist]

In regards to German swept wings, several engineers were working with the technology, like Busemann and Lippisch.

Busemann even wrote a paper in 1935 about "supersonic flow" in relation to the swept wing and the following year, presented data on the benefits of swept wings in the transonic region.

 

[drgondog]

Don't forget that much of the rapid progress in aircraft development postwar was due to captured German wind tunnel data that were not available to the genius British and US designers before May 1945 - Germany had six supersonic wind tunnels and all of the Allied powers combined exactly none. The MiG 15 was apparently based on German last-minute designs.

As concerns the "intractable" engine issues of the Me262: the German jet engines were under constant development, they would have become better in time (refined compressors and combustors), even if their life would still have been better counted in minutes - a question of available materials, especially a lack of Nickel.

As to the comparison of "Winkle" Brown and Chuck Yaeger - Yaeger had a vastly greater ego, in my opinion he was a glory seeker and self-aggrandizer who never left out an opportunity to dump on other pilots; in his autobiography he is uncharacteristically coy about how many of his combat sorties over Germany consisted of machine-gunning civilians.
Brown was a modest guy who did his work without tooting his own horn, but who flew under wartime conditions a large number of widely differing planes, frequently from carriers. Would Chucky have been able to land a Mossie or a Vampire on a carrier in 1945, if given the chance?

I think a manure loaded BS Flag is appropriate for some of your comments. You could not, nor aspire to, carry Yeager's jockstrap - yet ever so glib at dismissing his accomplishments.

We can agree that nobody in my 77 year old memory could argue against Brown's accomplishments during WWII as a test pilot of more aircraft than any peer. On the other hand, despite Yeager's alleged ego, no one in sound mind is going to dismiss Yeager's accomplishments at testing unique 'flying coffins' in the late 40's and 50's at Muroc/Edwards AFB. Advantage Brown due to experience - but no tangible metric for skill at wringing out dangerous aircraft.

Combat record - Yeager gets the nod, not just WWII, but also the Pakistan-India unpleasantness as well as Vietnam.
Not.Even.Close.
Also surviving capture as an Evader, jouneying to Spain to escape capture gets the nod. Brown compares how?

As to landing anything that Brown 'landed', why do you think Yeager lacked the skill to learn carrier landings and proceed from there? If pointing out Brown's post war exploits versus Yeager's - what do you have in mind.

As to ''coy about how many sorties of Germany consisted of machine gunning civilians' comment? What a douche bag comment. US escorts dropping down to strafe on the return to base leg undoubtedly killed civilians, particulaly when shooting up barges and rail targets. Yeager was not able to return from combat until the Allies had over run south and southeast France along his escape route - meaning he was not participating in 8th AF CAS efforts in June/July and August between Channel and German border. He was home at Wright Field when the alleged strafing of civilians escaping Dresden occurred.

What did you have in mind?

 

[MiTasol]

In regards to German swept wings, several engineers were working with the technology, like Busemann and Lippisch.

Lippisch was an interesting guy and still very active in research into his later years.

He was at the EAA conventions in Rockford Il during 65 and 66 or 66 and 67 with his latest offering to aviation. A reverse delta tail dragger with a bowed wing that had the tips almost touching the ground but the centreline high enough for prop clearance. The purpose was to create the maximum of ground effect in order to produce a simple STOL aircraft and he gave lectures both years.

 

[drgondog]

In regards to German swept wings, several engineers were working with the technology, like Busemann and Lippisch.

Busemann even wrote a paper in 1935 about "supersonic flow" in relation to the swept wing and the following year, presented data on the benefits of swept wings in the transonic region.

Von Karman was a Giant in the study of Supersonic Flow and founded JPL after his stint with Millikan at CalTech in 30s and 40's

 

[nuuumannn]

You want a jet with issues, the Meteor - its rather grim nickname was the 'meatbox' it killed so many pilots and It never got better.

A gross oversimplification of the situation, but that can be expected. Yes, pilots died, but it wasn't a difficult aircraft to fly but like every aeroplane it had its problems and death resulted if these were ignored. Don't take it from me, take it from a guy who flew them. RAF pilot David Ogilvy flew Mosquitoes then transited onto Meteors after the war and published his experiences. Here are some of the things that killed pilots:

"Checks of course are important on any aeroplane, but an essential safety factor on the Meteor was to ensure that the airbrakes, which protruded from the wing inboard of each engine, were in. If they remained extended on the final turn-in the nose tended to drop, sometimes quite violently, and no amount of back-pressure on the control column would rectify the situation. Unfortunately this led to several fatal accidents."

A bit about the Meteor's asymmetric performance, which caused a few accidents:

"With regard to asymmetric handling, the performance on one was excellent. In this condition a level speed of more than 300kt could be attained, but at low speeds the rudder load was almost intolerable. The rudder trim control was a small knurled wheel on the left of the pilot's seat, and it was neither sufficiently easy to turn quickly nor adequate in effect: it was one of the Meteor's few weak features. It revealed its shortcomings to the full on asymmetric overshoot, when only a locked leg could withstand the load, but this problem was partly offset by the Meteor's remarkable willingness to climb away happily and rapidly, with ample reserve of power. Never before had I met a machine that offered more than a marginal climb performance in this configuration."

The MiG 15 was apparently based on German last-minute designs.

Rubbish. The MiG-15 was entirely designed in-house. It benefitted from German swept wing research, but it wasn't "based on" any German fighter. A little known fact is that Russian scientists were carrying out research into swept wings as early as 1942 and test flights by unpowered gliders fitted with swept planes were carried out. This research, combined with data acquired from German sources contributed to defining the MiG-15's swept wing configuration, but its design was entirely done by Russian engineers. The rumour it was based on the Ta 183 paper plane is crap. The biggest foreign influence on the MiG-15 was its British engine, the prototype flew with a Rolls-Royce Nene, before the Klimov VK-1 went into production.

This aircraft was based on the Ta 183, but that's because its designer was the very same guy. This is Kurt Tank's Argentine fighter the Pulqui II. Looks a bit like a MiG-15 but the differences are obvious.

Pulqui II

The MiG-15 by comparison. This is a Russian built MiG-15 supplied to China, the Chinese never built the single-seat MiG-15 under licence. They did build the two-seat MiG-15UTI however.

DSC_6151