57 OTU SPITFIRE Mk.I LVN s/n AR212

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by fubar57, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    #1 fubar57, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    I'd really appreciate some interpretative color thoughts on the following photo...

    1-AR212-02-001.jpg

    ...just purchased the Airfix Mk.I kit and I would like to add this to my red/white/blue striped Spit of the same squadron. I've seen several profiles and kit builds and I think most are wrong. Here's my thoughts; camo was standard DKG/DE over Sky or Sky Grey(the fuselage band looks to be a different color than the bottom of the aircraft - "A" scheme. The nose of the aircraft is white though the majority of builds and profiles say this was yellow. I say white as it is a different shade when compared to the outer roundel ring. The code letters LV, to me appear to be the same color as the yellow outer roundel ring though some profiles/models show this as grey. Thanks in advance for any input.


    Geo
     
  2. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #2 Wurger, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    The worn uniform of her makes the rendition more difficult. However my first impression was the top and sides of the engine cowling -white but not yellow. The bottom of the engine cowling and spinner Sky S-type or Duck Egg Blue. These paints gave the effect of very light ( almost white ) colour when the fadding process was advanced or pic was taken without any filter.. The quick ID fuselage band of the fadded Sky S-type or DEB colour aparently applied later then the underside coat and it is just dirty at the bottom area. The "N" code letter seems to be of the same colour and time of applying like the ID band. Therefore the white colour could be used too as the UTU units used it for marking very often. However the ID band had to be of the Sky S-type paint because it was the ID marking and this is the reason I doubt about the white there. Although the "LV" code letters seem to be of the yellow ( comparing to the yellow ring of the RAF roundel ) I would say these were of the Medium Sea Grey. Both of these colours look the same in B&W images. An example below... the pic source: the net.


    mk1_a.jpg

    mk1_b.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Airframes

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    I'm think I've seen, possibly have, in a magazine, a colour shot of this aircraft, with a yellow nose, painted in washable 'distemper' paints. I can't be sure though, as it was some years ago, and I have seen profiles with it in yellow. It was for an exercise apparently, with this aircraft acting as 'enemy', hence the 'yellow'(?) nose.
    from memory, the codes were the standard colour of the period, Medium Sea Grey or equivalent locally mixed grey.
     
  4. Wurger

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    #4 Wurger, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    And here another Spit P-8088 coded NK_K. Please notice how changed the shadow of code letters, the ID band , spinner and the yellow ring of the RAF roundel because of the daylight and direction pictures were taken from.

    spitfire_p8088_nk-k.jpg

    spitfire_p8088_nk-k_.jpg

    spitfire_p8088_nk-k_a.jpg


    Oops.. I have criss-crossed posts with Terry. I agree with Terry on the colour of the code letters. The MSG one. But still having doubts about the yellow nose. Here is a shot of the Spitfire IIA PK-K P7855 of the 315th Squadron. The code letters - MSG, the ID band , spinner and undersides - Sky S-type. Please make a focus on the white parts of the Polish Air Force White-Red chequer and compare it to the yellow ring of the RAF roundel. The same effect like seen in the pic of the LV_N while comparing the nose colour and the RAF roundel. However Terry's idea of the participation in training and acting as an enemy ( the yellow nose ) sounds very likely.

    Spitfire IIA PK-K  P7855 315Sqdn .jpg
     
  5. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys. The codes in standard colors would be a lot easier as I would have to make my own masks if they were yellow though the "N" does look brighter than the "LV". The aircraft went straight from the factory to 57OTU in 21 days so I don't think the "N" was added later. Perhaps it's just grimy from the prop wash as the yellow in the roundel ring slightly changes hue right near the top of the "L" or is this just a play of the light. Terry, over night I pondered about a yellow nose as it would have reflected the yellow nose on some of the 109s at the time. I read on another model forum that the color changed to yellow after the photo in post #1 was taken but this is the only photo I have found so far.

    Geo
     
  6. Wurger

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    In many pictures can be noticed that the individaual code letter looks like being of brighter colour although all letteres of the code were applied with the same paint.

    Hurricane RF_E 303 sqdn.jpg

    Spit_303Sqdn RF_M.jpg

    SpitfireMkVb JH-H 317Sqdn 1941_a.jpg
     
  7. Wurger

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    Oh ... BTW.. here is an enlarged shot of the image in post #1.

    1-AR212-02-002.jpg
     
  8. Airframes

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    Looking at the enlarged photo, I do think the nose is yellow. OK, it's a lighter tone than the deep yellow of the roundel, but then it's a) fresher paint. b) a washable distemper, and c) almost certainly a different shade of yellow, and relatively thinly applied.
    Look closely and compare with the white in the roundel, and there is a difference, slight, I'll admit, but a different tone.
    I remember seeing the photo, as it was quite striking, and the caption, or article, mentioned the exercise, and the approximate date(s).
    I might still have the magazine - or it might actually be in my copy of 'Combat Codes', come to think of it - so I'll have a search when I get back from Duxford.
     
  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I went through an article about colours in B&W images. And I have a question... of what colours are these tails?

    1.jpg

    2.jpg

    Also what was the colour of the name " Petie 2nd"?

    petie_2nd_1a.jpg
     
  10. Airframes

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    Probably yellow - but, depending on the film, and paper used to print the originals, they could actually be red ! I doubt the latter though, as the stripe around the tail on the first ones appears to be red.
     
  11. Wurger

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    #11 Wurger, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    Exactly My Friend. These tails and the name were yellow although these seem to be white. To be honest the "Petie 2nd" name was of yellow-orange tone. But the photographer used the yellow filter while taking pictures and therefore the yellow paint seems to be the white. Here are images taken without the filter what made the yellow colour looking dark. Also using of the yellow filter causes the Red colour getting lighter shade and the sky getting darker with clouds seen in. The image with the Spitfire shows the sky qiute light and without the clouds seen. In addition the Red colour in the RAF roundel and the Fin Flash is still dark of almost the same shade the Blue is. As a result we may say that the picture was taken without the yellow filter . If that's true the yellow should be dark ( no matter of its tinge or being fresh , see the yellow numbers of German planes ) but the Spit nose isn't dark but bright. And therefore I would insist that it was white rather.

    P-51D_44-72620_Shawnee_Princess_640_of_the_462nd_FS_506th_FG.jpg

    P-51D_Mustang_44-72588_616_of_the_462nd_FS_506th_FG_Iwo_Jima_1945.jpg

    And for comparing ... a shot taken with the orthochromatic negative ...

    petie2nd_b.jpg

    a shot taken with the standard negative ...

    petie_2nd_c.jpg
     
  12. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Beauty, I'll stick with my original call though the codes will be grey. It'll be a while before I do this in kit for and I will still look for something concrete though I am sure many have been down this road before and failed. Thank you Wojtek and Terry for your help.




    Geo
     
  13. Airframes

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    I must admit, the Spit nose does look lighter than yellow, if that makes sense, it's jut bugging me that I saw a pic with a yellow nose which, as it was some years ago, might even have been a restored aircraft, or even a colourised image - memory only is a tricky thing to work from !!
     
  14. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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  15. Airframes

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    Bingo !
    Now I know why I remembered this so well - I met, and had the honour and pleasure of escorting 'JAS' Storrar at the 50th Anniversary of the Shell House attack, in Copenhagen in 1995. (Sadly, I also had the privilege of representing the Shell House and Mosquito AC committee members at his funeral, one month later).
    Being 'Jas's' aircraft, the photos and profile/article stuck in my memory, so if 'Jas' said the nose was yellow, then it was yellow !!
     
  16. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Good read Andy. Airfix has a newer Mk.I kit which has the decal option for this bird and they call for a pale yellow nose, which coincidentally, is a color I have....

    Capture.JPG


    Geo
     
  17. Wurger

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    I see Pal. To be honest all models of the kite I have seen , have the yellow nose. But still getting impression it is not correct. In a such type of negative the yellow would be darker like the yellow ring of the roundel or so. I wanted to find another example for that but wasn't able to grab two different pics of the same plane. There are two ones showing the same Mustang III PK-E of the 315th Polish squadron. But coudn't find the second image of her. Thereofre I'm using the other Mustang shots of the squadron. All of them I have resized up. The first ones show the PK-E and PK-W planes. The pics were taken without the yellow filter. Please notice the shade of the red in the roundels and fin flashes.The yellow ring is dark as the code letters and bands of the Sky S type and prop blade tips. Also the squadron emblem that contained the yellow colour too. The sky is light without clouds seen in there. The white parts are white including the spinners and front engine cowlings.

    D_ski115s.jpg

    D_ski25.jpg

    And here is an image with the PK-M plane. The pic was taken with the yellow filter. If you may notice the red colour of the fin flash and roundel is lighter and the yellow ring with the code letters and the band of the Sky S type seem to be white comparing to the quick ID white elements. Also the sky got darker what is characteristic for using of the yellow filter.

    D_ski115a.jpg
     
  18. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Oh so Andy's post ends that disscusion. If there is said it was yellow it was yellow. :D
     
  19. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    #19 fubar57, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
    I'm going with a lightish yellow. I tried something, not precise. What everyone seems to do...

    Untitled.jpg Untitled.jpg

    ...I put a layer down and toned down the yellow with white and then merged it down...

    Capture.JPG

    ...and then converted to B&W...

    Capture1.JPG Untitled.jpg
    Untitled.jpg

    ...it looks close to the photo.


    Geo
     
  20. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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