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True Dat. I was at the 67 (IIRC) American Fighter Aces Reunion and Robin was holding court amongst many friendlies. With him from Viet Nam was LtCol Bob Earthquake McGoon Titus with three Mig kills, and USN Captain Billy Kidd who flew F-8s and was already 'suitably armed' with internal 20mm.Along with the "fighter mafia".
The USN and USAF, along with VVO-Strany and the RN and RAF were all eschewing guns on fighter aircraft, especially those primarily tasked with air defense, at about that time: it was a fashion, something like plaid suits.
Tha
While that may be true, how many other countries brought out fighters, in the F-4's era, that had no guns at all ?The USN and USAF, along with VVO-Strany and the RN and RAF were all eschewing guns on fighter aircraft, especially those primarily tasked with air defense, at about that time: it was a fashion, something like plaid suits.
How many other countries could develop them?While that may be true, how many other countries brought out fighters, in the F-4's era, that had no guns at all ?
I worked with a Navy F-4 ACM training squadron shortly after Top Gun was established, and the instructors had all had their initial training in the pre-Top Gun era. Apparently the Navy in those days envisioned the F-4 as a long range fleet defense interceptor and nuclear weapons delivery system. Their training in air-to-air focused on long range detection and interception of Badger/Blinder/Beauty class threats with BVR missile kills. Mixing it up with single seat fighters in visual combat was just not part of the scenario. That's what the F-8 was for. ACM training was further limited by a safety-driven prohibition against dissimilar types dogfighting of any kind. The AIM-7 Sparrow spent its entire life "on the verge of" and "one tweak away from" reliable performance. Never quite got there. Kinda like the torpedo performance issues of WWII, the R&D folks never quite believed what the combat folks were telling them.The USN and USAF, along with VVO-Strany and the RN and RAF were all eschewing guns on fighter aircraft, especially those primarily tasked with air defense, at about that time: it was a fashion, something like plaid suits.
As an aside, and something which I do not have good sources for, I've read that F4 pilots did not get much training in fighter-fighter combat before the USN started the Top Gun program, and many of the USAF fighter pilots had a similar gap in training, and that, at least in the USN, only the Crusader pilots received regular training in fighter-fighter combat. As I said, I don't have good sources for this; if anybody does, it would be great if they would post them.
I worked with a Navy F-4 ACM training squadron shortly after Top Gun was established, and the instructors had all had their initial training in the pre-Top Gun era. Apparently the Navy in those days envisioned the F-4 as a long range fleet defense interceptor and nuclear weapons delivery system. Their training in air-to-air focused on long range detection and interception of Badger/Blinder/Beauty class threats with BVR missile kills. Mixing it up with single seat fighters in visual combat was just not part of the scenario. That's what the F-8 was for. ACM training was further limited by a safety-driven prohibition against dissimilar types dogfighting of any kind. The AIM-7 Sparrow spent its entire life "on the verge of" and "one tweak away from" reliable performance. Never quite got there. Kinda like the torpedo performance issues of WWII, the R&D folks never quite believed what the combat folks were telling them.
When McNamara stuffed the Navy-developed F-4 down the Air Force's gagging throat, the AF begged for at least an internal Vulcan like their Century Series had, but the answer was "WYSIWYG". The F-4C was an F-4B with a cheaper radar, a full set of flight controls in back, and softer struts. Mac couldn't even be talked into eliminating the tailhook!
Air combat doctrine of the day was predicated on the concept of "sterile airspace" where all bogies are bandits, where IFF always works, and friendly fire losses are not an issue. It took a while (years!) for the realities of Vietnam to set in.
Cheers,
Wes
Is 50 pounds of stick force the maximum for roll? It seems a decent amount but I'm just curious
I worked with a Navy F-4 ACM training squadron shortly after Top Gun was established, and the instructors had all had their initial training in the pre-Top Gun era. Apparently the Navy in those days envisioned the F-4 as a long range fleet defense interceptor and nuclear weapons delivery system. Their training in air-to-air focused on long range detection and interception of Badger/Blinder/Beauty class threats with BVR missile kills. Mixing it up with single seat fighters in visual combat was just not part of the scenario. That's what the F-8 was for. ACM training was further limited by a safety-driven prohibition against dissimilar types dogfighting of any kind. The AIM-7 Sparrow spent its entire life "on the verge of" and "one tweak away from" reliable performance. Never quite got there. Kinda like the torpedo performance issues of WWII, the R&D folks never quite believed what the combat folks were telling them.
When McNamara stuffed the Navy-developed F-4 down the Air Force's gagging throat, the AF begged for at least an internal Vulcan like their Century Series had, but the answer was "WYSIWYG". The F-4C was an F-4B with a cheaper radar, a full set of flight controls in back, and softer struts. Mac couldn't even be talked into eliminating the tailhook!
Air combat doctrine of the day was predicated on the concept of "sterile airspace" where all bogies are bandits, where IFF always works, and friendly fire losses are not an issue. It took a while (years!) for the realities of Vietnam to set in.
Cheers,
Wes
...
I have fought F-15's (A-E models, Saudis), F-16's (US, Asian & European), Mirage 2000's, Tornado's, F-4's (US & German), F-5's, F-18's (Top Gun, USMC & Canadian), AV-8's, F-14's, Mig-29's, and have tapped A-10s, B-1's, B-52's (who can put out enough chaff to FOD our your motors), P-3's, and C-130s, plus Hind & Apaches plus some I've probably forgot.