Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Anecdotes are undocumented stories. If an author interviews some guy who had worked in the purchasing office at Vega who tells the author the that everybody knew Vega bought rivets from old horseshoes, he's repeating an anecdote. If there is a receipt from Jo's Horseshoe Recycling for 5,000 pounds of horseshoe iron rivets, the interviewee provided corroboration.
Anecdotes usually don't involve bad faith, nor do faulty memories.
Caidin was a good writer, kind of inventing the category of military thriller later better exploited by Tom Clancy.Martin Cadin is an example of the worst of the genre. His works, if classified as fiction, would be an enjoyable read. But I cannot even count the number of times I have run across one or more of his stories repeated as truth even after it had been totally debunked. Some variants of those stories have even shown up largely unchanged in recent books!
If someone could obtain a POH from both a Boeing and a Vega F, one should be able to compare useful load between the birds (given a comparable mission equipment).
I realize this may be a 21st century mind trying to apply my cultural logic on a 20th century system more familiar with steam engines and side valve engines. But, if you're serious, it might be a good starting point.
Zip
He may also have been partially right. Does anyone on this site know that the difference between the B-17E and the B-17F was the heavier redesigned wing structure in the F? I can only suspect that Roger was comparing the weights for Douglas' B-17Fs with those for Boeing's B-17Es. Before certain self-appointed experts explain why there couldn't have been any difference, it might help to do some research to find out exactly what differences there were.
What do you mean, "it was not the difference between the E and F models"?Hi Dana,
Welcome to the forum. I want to clarify the issue I was addressing, it was not the difference between the E and F models. Vega did not build any E models nor did Douglas, or at least not many. As Freemen himself mentioned, by the time the BVD group was ready the F model was current. The part I took issue with was his claim that Vega and Douglas had built F versions with different wing structures to the Boeing F version. And for the record I like Freeman as an author. He seems to have done a very good job in his research but this statement is unlikely in the extreme. Perhaps he meant to say the wing structures varied between the E and F versions but that is not what he said.
There were numerous cases of wings being wholesale swapped between damaged aircraft in order to restore at least one to flying status. But I have never once heard that a wing could not be swapped because it was between a Boeing and a Vega and or Douglas aircraft. I truly would like to know his source. Perhaps in your digging in the archives this would be something you could look into?
Anyway, welcome aboard nice to have you with us!
How do you know of the wing differences between the B-17E and F?A good Sunday morning to you all, gents.
I suspect I should refrain from mixing two arguments in one posting. In particular, I was objecting that anyone, let alone a moderator, would cast aspersions on a lost and missed friend.
As to the actual discussion on wing differences, Roger was probably wrong that the different wing weights were attributed to different manufacturers. Clearly, we would expect a major change in wing structure to be noticed, and yet I've never seen a publication mention the major change in wing structure between the B-17E and the B-17F. I mentioned this change as a possible explanation for Roger's error.
My own B-17 research was put on hold while the publisher worked on a few other issues. I got far enough to know that there is a great deal about the technical side of that aircraft that has never been published. With luck, next year I'll be back to work on the B-17, and we'll all have answers to what Roger thought he found. (The contract files are very explicit when specifying the weights of each component - especially the major structures.)
Cheers,
Dana
I mean exactly that, the quote in contention in Freeman's book spoke of differences between F models not the differences between E and F models. Of course there were differences between the models. That is not in dispute.What do you mean, "it was not the difference between the E and F models"?
How do you know of the wing differences between the B-17E and F?
My name is Dana Bell, and some of you know my work. Most weeks I'm at the National Archives between three and six days - digging up aviation history for books without footnotes. I too may be full of shit, but if any of you are ever on the second or fifth floors for research, ask the staff where I'm sitting - we can have lunch and talk about what's really involved in digging through the technical record. Until then,
Cheers,
Dana