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Answered by Mr. Sinclair. You can estimate that the engine will loose about 3 % power per 1000ft.I don't have the precise HP available to a Wildcat at 20,000 or 25,000 ft but I think it was a bit more.
Yes the Hawk 75A-4 (Cyclone R-1820-G205) had a two speed supercharger, accounts differ as to the engine making 1000hp at 14,000ft or 15,000ft. The 14,000ft maybe with no ram on an engine test stand.Well, it's context for comparison with an "Ozhawk". And it sounds like a two speed supercharged version of a Hawk was actually available. I'd love to see some more specific performance stats on it.
Answered by Mr. Sinclair. You can estimate that the engine will loose about 3 % power per 1000ft.
The Allison was down to about 800hp at 21,500ft without ram.
The Allison could make about 880hp at 19,000ft without ram.
The Wildcat power figures are without RAM.
Yes the Hawk 75A-4 (Cyclone R-1820-G205) had a two speed supercharger, accounts differ as to the engine making 1000hp at 14,000ft or 15,000ft. The 14,000ft maybe with no ram on an engine test stand.
15,000ft maybe with the airplane flying at/near climb speed?
Speed is in the mid 320mph range at 15,000ft.
Weight of the aircraft is around 5,750lbs for the performance figures as the normal gross weight only included 105 US gallons of fuel, unprotected tanks, little or no armor (how they were flown in India I have no idea).
Since the engine didn't get any better, any combat improvements (protection, better guns, etc) have to be balanced against the loss in performance.
OK, we are getting confused.he radial engined Wildcat with a 2 speed engine does have more power and probably climbs and maneuvers better at that altitude.
The Hawk 75A-4 used a R-1820.What about this two stage 1830, did they put it in anything?
OK, we are getting confused.
The figures for the F4F-3 and F4F-4 are for two stage engines.
The USN didn't get more than a few token F4F-3A's with two speed engines in 1940/41. Until they got the FM-2s with Wright cyclone engines.
The two stage engines require the intercoolers shown in the photos in the earlier post. The two stage engines are around 80-100lbs heavier than an R-1830 with a two speed supercharger (you have to stick a housing with a 2nd impeller on the back of the engine).
The Hawk 75A-4 used a R-1820.
We do have to keep this straight. R-1820 and R-1830 are totally different engines only thing they have in common is that they are round.
From Wright
You could get R-1820s with single speed supercharger.
You could get R-1820s with two speed superchargers.
You could get R-1820s with single speed superchargers with a Turbo charger added to it (B-17s).
From P & W
You could get R-1830s with single speed superchargers.
You could get R-1830s with two speed superchargers.
You could get R-1830s with two stage superchargers.
You could get R-1830s with single speed superchargers with Turbos added to it (P-43s and B-24s)
Which type of engine from which company are you interested in?
And when?
Pratt never used water injection on a R-1830 engine.Whatever has the best performance and as soon as possible. I say we skip the turbos though!
Could the Aussies make two stage R-1830s?
If not maybe just have them make Wildcats. Un-navalized so perhaps a bit lighter. And water injection as soon as it's available.
The water injection ONLY came "standard" on the FM-2 rather late in production.Water injection i understand comes with the R-1820, but if you had that available in time maybe a low-medium alt FM2 type Hawk would also be good.
Interesting. To me that may explain why the Mohawk did pretty well in India.
I'd also say the Oscar, though not a fast plane, was a damn good fighter and for an Allied type to hold it's own with a Ki-43 is a positive sign.
Are you sure about that timeline? I thought they got K and maybe some M earlier than that
Right, Kittyhawk was faster, for sure, than a Wildcat. But top speed doesn't tell the whole story. At 20,000 feet, per this test, a Kittyhawk I was making 655 hp and rate of climb is 880 fpm. At 25,000 ft, it was making 555 hp and the ROC is down to 480 fpm. ...
Based on how pilots described it, it's not really capable of combat at 25,000 ft plus, probably not at 20,000 either, or anything over about 15,000 ft.
But over Darwin, fighting at the absolute limit of their performance ceiling, it was literally one pass, split S and dive away, then zoom and climb back up. Because they were just anemic at that altitude.
Of course it was available. Forget producing them, Australia got chance to get them (or at least try to get them) after fall of France in summer 1940. But as I wrote before, nobody in Australia wanted single seat fighters before Pearl Harbor (at least not officialy). RAAF insisted on two seat fighters, that is why they ordered Beaufighters.And it sounds like a two speed supercharged version of a Hawk was actually available.
Could the Aussies make two stage R-1830s?
Are we giving up on any semblance of practicality in this discussion. The J-22 flew about 4 - 5mths AFTER the CAC Boomerang so why would they consider it?Nobody mentions the Swedish J22 in these discussions.
They changed more than adding the wing fold. Like changed from 4 guns to six guns but restricted the ammo load. A lot of things got slightly heavier.Certainly there seemed to be enough of a difference in performance (mainly due to weight, right?) between F4F-3 and -4 to make a noticeable change (for the worse) that the USN pilots complained about it.
Fact that Mohawks did well in India has nothing to do with two-speed supercharger or any performance in high altitude. All encounters with enemy airplanes there were under 10 000 ft, at least in case of Mohawks.
Oscar was good fighter, but every Allied airplane in CBI was able to hold it's own with Ki-43, nothing special there. It was more about tactic (and circumstances) anyway, as soon as Allied pilots realized they can disengage from Ki-43 at will , "greatness" of Oscar was gone.
100% sure. 49th FG got some P-40K-1s as reinforcements in October 1942, never Ms. As I wrote, they were still using P-40Es (in mix with P-40Ks) in July 1942 when they replaced them with P-40Ns.
Right, with engine running at 2600 rpm and not at 3000 rpm hovewer.
Combat reports says otherwise. I can agree with 25 000 ft plus, I disagree with the rest.
They were not doing this as only option, but ok. Wildcats over Solomons were doing same thing, because it is smart thing to do. What else can you do with Zeros around?
Well Beaufighters certainly weren't a bad choice.Of course it was available. Forget producing them, Australia got chance to get them (or at least try to get them) after fall of France in summer 1940. But as I wrote before, nobody in Australia wanted single seat fighters before Pearl Harbor (at least not officialy). RAAF insisted on two seat fighters, that is why they ordered Beaufighters.
They don't even make two speed R-1830s, I already wrote why somewhere in this thread. But sure, why not, yes, everything is possible.
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This is all over the place. Can you please tell me what is your idea of timeline here? When Australia in this "what if" scenario decides about production of this fighter?
They changed more than adding the wing fold. Like changed from 4 guns to six guns but restricted the ammo load. A lot of things got slightly heavier.
In fact the F4F-4 gained about 350lbs empty (doesn't include guns) over the F4F-3 and they took about 90lbs worth of flotation gear.
The wing may have been worth about 200lbs?
However even an F4F-3 with 110 gals of fuel and 300rpg was going to go about 7150lbs.
An F4F-4 with 6 guns and with full internal fuel (144 gallons) was just under 8,000lbs which is were the complaints came from.
Don't get me wrong, I like what if scenarios (after all I run a forum largely, though not exclusively, dedicated to them). That said, I prefer to see some practicality if proposing things. I would also challenge the comment "have a lightbulb go off in their head (which didn't actually happen)". Quite the opposite in fact. The RAAF and the Australian Govt/industry, actually made very sound decisions in the lead up to the war. Moreover, in terms of aircraft development/production etc they actually achieved near miracles given they were essentially starting from next to nothing in the mid 1930s.Obviously it's a 'What if" scenario which some people can find inherently frustrating. It is certainly not something which actually happened. Presumably somebody at RAAF would have had to have a lightbulb go off in their head (which didn't actually happen) probably at a very early date in order to make this come together.
Don't get me wrong, I like what if scenarios (after all I run a forum largely, though not exclusively, dedicated to them). That said, I prefer to see some practicality if proposing things. I would also challenge the comment "have a lightbulb go off in their head (which didn't actually happen)". Quite the opposite in fact. The RAAF and the Australian Govt/industry, actually made very sound decisions in the lead up to the war. Moreover, in terms of aircraft development/production etc they actually achieved near miracles given they were essentially starting from next to nothing in the mid 1930s.
What is your source for the operational history of the Mohawk in Burma?Fact that Mohawks did well in India has nothing to do with two-speed supercharger or any performance in high altitude. All encounters with enemy airplanes there were under 10 000 ft, at least in case of Mohawks.
The water injection ONLY came "standard" on the FM-2 rather late in production.
Since the FM-2 itself showed up late your FM-2 type Hawk may not show up until the summer of 1944?
The First FM-2 with the Cyclone engine leaves the Factory in Sept of 1943.
Eastern Aircraft builds 310 FM-2s in 1943.
First FM-2s use the -56 engine with 1300hp for take-off at 2600rpm, a totally new engine compared to the older G205 engines.
Wright may be a little off and claims the first -56 engines were produced in Oct of 1943?
The -56W introduced the water injection but Wright says they started delivering them in April of 1944.
Later FM-2s get -56A or -56WA engines with a revised crankshaft that allows 1350hp for take-off at 2700rpm.
But the engines with the revised crankshafts don't show up until Dec 1944.