A Radial Engined Fighter for the Australians to build (and maybe the Chinese and Indians) (1 Viewer)

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it was replaced in multiple squadrons by the P-40 in 1941 and 1942.

But not all. 6 Sqn kept its Hurricanes and, just like in the Far East the Hurricane remained in service until the end of the campaign, then in 1944 it moved to Italy, still equipped with Hurricane IVs. Despite your protestations, Hurricanes remained in the fight for the same length of time as P-40s and in some cases remained after the P-40s had themselves been replaced in those very same fighter squadrons you mention. It should also be mentioned that those Mid East units received P-40s because they were in theatre; the home based Hurricane units that were replacing theirs received Spitfires - P-40s never served in UK based fighter squadrons, but Hurricanes remained in squadron use back home.

Nevertheless, I suspect this won't change your opinion of the Hurricane, which is sad because I do believe you completely underestimate it and its impact. The two types had a lot in common and even by 1941 were both second tier to better fighters operated by the Allies and Axis. Even their production numbers are not that far apart, even if the P-40 underwent more development through fewer airframes.

The Brits sensibly realised from early on it wasn't worth putting development effort into the Hurricane outside of weapons modifications - there was a plan to fit Griffons, but that would have meant less for aircraft that better deserved them. There was no need to advance the Hurricane, yet Curtiss threw as much as it could at the P-40 and it still couldn't match the best fighters being built by other manufacturers, again because its replacement by Curtiss was floundering at every turn. Hawker however gave up on improving the Hurricane's performance beyond 1941 and had turned to the Tornado/Typhoon before then, although the latter had its fair share of headaches, it led to the Tempest, which was one of the best low-altitude fighters of the war, yet Hurricane production continued because it proved a very useful airframe, despite what you believe. Credit where credit is due.

You can accuse me of many things, but not reading the source material isn't one of them.

Well, you missed that one as the source Wiki quoted was exactly the same as I did. Anyway, point taken. Your info is great to read and I've enjoyed you digging this stuff out, Bill.
 
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But not all. 6 Sqn kept its Hurricanes and, just like in the Far East the Hurricane remained in service until the end of the campaign, then in 1944 it moved to Italy, still equipped with Hurricane IVs. Despite your protestations, Hurricanes remained in the fight for the same length of time as P-40s and in some cases remained after the P-40s had themselves been replaced in those very same fighter squadrons you mention. It should also be mentioned that those Mid East units received P-40s because they were in theatre; the home based Hurricane units that were replacing theirs received Spitfires - P-40s never served in UK based fighter squadrons, but Hurricanes remained in squadron use back home.

We aren't as far apart as you probably think. I believe the Hurricane was an excellent fighter, albeit with a finite lifespan (like all fighters). Then it continued as a good fighter-bomber / CAS aircraft in certain Theaters as you note, for quite a bit longer. I think the P-40, in spite of it's serious flaws (especially the altitude limitation) lasted a bit longer than the Hurricane as a front line fighter, but as you note, only in the Theaters where the mission was about supporting ground combat. It was not very good at intercepting high altitude bombers. Again, as you note, the P-40 was never deemed suitable for home defense of the UK, I quite agree. The Hurricane was also an older design, dating from the mid-30s while the P-40 was comparatively new (albeit based on an old design, the P-36 we've also been discussing here).

Nevertheless, I suspect this won't change your opinion of the Hurricane, which is sad because I do believe you completely underestimate it and its impact. The two types had a lot in common and even by 1941 were both second tier to better fighters operated by the Allies and Axis. Even their production numbers are not that far apart, even if the P-40 underwent more development through fewer airframes.

The Hurricane proved quite useful in the Western Desert, they did well against the Italian fighters and the Bf 110s, and were leading the Allied air forces very effectively until the 109s and then MC 202s started showing up toward the end of 1941 (IIRC). P-40s had trouble with 109s and 202s as well but proved able to hold their own a bit better, and with adjusted tactics, (and later, Merlin XX engines) they continued to be effective against them for quite a while longer. I think they were used as fighter bombers by some units until the end of the war but that was probably more a factor of their being available.

All fighters had their life span as such. Then some got a second life as a fighter-bomber or in some other role. The Hurricane was lethal front-line fighter in Greece, in the Middle East, and most importantly in Britain from the crucial battles of 1940 through the end of 1941. The Russians didn't have much nice to say about it but I think it was actually a fairly important type for them as well during those crucial early days of the war.

I think the Hurricane could and would have been developed further except for the wings, made to provide lift approximating a biplane (if I understand correctly) had not just been so thick.

The P-40 and Hurricane were similar in that they were both just good enough (unlike most fighter aircraft in the world at the time) to cope with the best Axis fighters, for a while. I just think the P-40 managed to do that job a bit longer, albeit only in certain regions where the fighting was mostly at low altitude.

The Brits sensibly realised from early on it wasn't worth putting development effort into the Hurricane outside of weapons modifications - there was a plan to fit Griffons, but that would have meant less for aircraft that better deserved them. There was no need to advance the Hurricane, yet Curtiss threw as much as it could at the P-40 and it still couldn't match the best fighters being built by other manufacturers, again because its replacement by Curtiss was floundering at every turn. Hawker however gave up on improving the Hurricane's performance beyond 1941 and had turned to the Tornado/Typhoon before then, although the latter had its fair share of headaches, it led to the Tempest, which was one of the best low-altitude fighters of the war, yet Hurricane production continued because it proved a very useful airframe, despite what you believe. Credit where credit is due.
All the Curtiss P-40 replacements (P-46 etc.) were unusable rubbish, and while the Typhoon certainly struggled as a design for a good while, it was a good fighter bomber and V1 chaser, and FW killer. The Tempest was the true crowning achievement of the line, once they (finally~!) made that thinner wing.

The Tempest was no doubt a better fighter than any version of the P-40. I do give credit to Hawker. And Hawker continued to make good aircraft long after the war. They made the Hunter in 1947, and as Hawker Siddeley , they had something to do with that marvelous Harrier jump jet right?

Curtiss by comparison stopped making aircraft in the late 40s I think.

Well, you missed that one as the source Wiki quoted was exactly the same as I did. Anyway, point taken. Your info is great to read and I've enjoyed you digging this stuff out, Bill.

Cheers, and likewise.
 
Regardless of whether the Hurricane or the P-40 in one of its forms made the best air superiority fighter (which will clearly be argued about until the cows come home!), the bottom line is that the Hurricane outnumbered the P-40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk throughout 1941 and 1942 in the Western Desert as well as the whole of the Mediterranean/Middle East theatre.

The first Tomahawks went to 250 squadron on its formation in Palestine in April 1941. By Nov 1941 there were only 5 squadrons, all in the Western Desert. Of those 112 converted from the Gladiator (it might have had a few Hurricanes while in Greece in early 1941 during the retreat, but its main equipment remained the Gladiator) and 3 RAAF from Hurricane I. 2 & 4 SAAF arrived from East Africa in July & Oct 1941 having flown a mix of types including Furies, Gladiators, Hurricanes and Mohawks in that region. While Kittyhawks started to become available in Dec 1941 conversion was gradual, lasting until Jan 1943.

By Oct 1942 the number of Tomahawk/Kittyhawk squadrons had risen to 8. 260 and 450 converted from Hurricane I to Kittyhawk I in Feb 1942 and Dec 1941 respectively, while 5 SAAF received Tomahawks on arrival from South Africa in Feb 1942 and retained them until Jan 1943 before upgrading to the Kittyhawk III.

Beyond that Tomahawks were used to supplement Hurricanes in a handful of squadrons for short periods in late 1941 and 1942. 94 even re-equipped from Hurricane IIB to Kittyhawk I for 3 months in 1942 before converting back to Hurricane I/IIC in May 1942!

After that only 11 SAAF joined the ranks of Kittyhawk users in the Med/ME and that wasn't until Oct 1944.

By way of comparison there were about 19 Hurricane squadrons in the Med / ME in Nov 1941 (11 in the Western Desert). That had fallen to 18 (13 in the Western Desert) by Oct 1942. That despite there being 4 squadrons on Malta having converted to Spitfire V in the interim.

In terms of numbers, in Nov 1941 Hurricanes outnumbered Tomahawks 348 to 102 across the Med/ME.

When the war in the Far East broke out in Dec 1941, 4 more Hurricane squadrons en route U.K. to ME were diverted to the Far East.

From July 1943, 2 of the SAAF Kittyhawk squadrons converted to Spitfire V followed by 4 squadrons to Mustangs between April & Nov 1944, leaving only 250, 450 and 11SAAF with Kittyhawks when the war in Europe ended.

351 (Yugoslav) squadron operated Hurricanes from July 1944 to the end of the war alongside 6 squadron as part of the Balkan Air Force.

Spitfires began to arrive on Malta at the end of Feb 1942. The first squadron operational in the Western Desert was 145 squadron in May 1942, followed by 601 in June (its aircraft having spent a month on so on Malta) and 92 in Aug (it had left the U.K. in Feb with 145 but lack of Spitfires in Egypt delayed its becoming operational).

More Hurricane squadrons arrived in the Med as part of the support for Operation Torch, before the general conversion to Spitfires started in early-mid 1943. But in April 1943 there were still over 20 Hurricane squadrons spread from Algeria to Iran.
 
Regardless of whether the Hurricane or the P-40 in one of its forms made the best air superiority fighter (which will clearly be argued about until the cows come home!), the bottom line is that the Hurricane outnumbered the P-40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk throughout 1941 and 1942 in the Western Desert as well as the whole of the Mediterranean/Middle East theatre.

The first Tomahawks went to 250 squadron on its formation in Palestine in April 1941. By Nov 1941 there were only 5 squadrons, all in the Western Desert. Of those 112 converted from the Gladiator (it might have had a few Hurricanes while in Greece in early 1941 during the retreat, but its main equipment remained the Gladiator) and 3 RAAF from Hurricane I. 2 & 4 SAAF arrived from East Africa in July & Oct 1941 having flown a mix of types including Furies, Gladiators, Hurricanes and Mohawks in that region. While Kittyhawks started to become available in Dec 1941 conversion was gradual, lasting until Jan 1943.

By Oct 1942 the number of Tomahawk/Kittyhawk squadrons had risen to 8. 260 and 450 converted from Hurricane I to Kittyhawk I in Feb 1942 and Dec 1941 respectively, while 5 SAAF received Tomahawks on arrival from South Africa in Feb 1942 and retained them until Jan 1943 before upgrading to the Kittyhawk III.

Beyond that Tomahawks were used to supplement Hurricanes in a handful of squadrons for short periods in late 1941 and 1942. 94 even re-equipped from Hurricane IIB to Kittyhawk I for 3 months in 1942 before converting back to Hurricane I/IIC in May 1942!

After that only 11 SAAF joined the ranks of Kittyhawk users in the Med/ME and that wasn't until Oct 1944.

By way of comparison there were about 19 Hurricane squadrons in the Med / ME in Nov 1941 (11 in the Western Desert). That had fallen to 18 (13 in the Western Desert) by Oct 1942. That despite there being 4 squadrons on Malta having converted to Spitfire V in the interim.

In terms of numbers, in Nov 1941 Hurricanes outnumbered Tomahawks 348 to 102 across the Med/ME.

Yes but by say, March 1942 that was no longer the case. By the mid-year the US units also started arriving, and by early 1943 there were no less than five US Fighter Groups, plus one indepdnent squadron (16 squadrons total) all flying the P-40F/L, in addition to two groups flying P-38s and (IIRC) one group flying Spitfire Mk Vs. Since US and British / Commonwealth aircraft were all flying under a joint command

The key factor which is actually relevant to my point was that by early 1942 the P-40 was flying most of the fighter escort and fighter sweep etc. missions, while Hurricanes were increasingly relegated to fighter bomber role. The same thing then happened by mid-year with the older Kittyhawk (I and Ia) models as they were replaced by Mark II and III types.

I found a good illustration of this on an old post on this very forum. During the month of October 1942, which saw the onset of the Battle of El Alamein, the following claims were made by Allied fighter pilots, broken down by aircraft type:


CLAIMS
Total Claims by Spitfires
- 31.5 Bf 109, 3 MC 202,1 1 Ju 52
Total Claims by RAF P-40's - 35.5 Bf 109, 11 MC 202, 9 Ju 87, 1 Ju 88, 1 Ju 52
Total Claims by US P-40's - 18 Bf 109, 7 MC 202, 4 Cr 42
Total Claims by Hurricanes - 3 Bf 109, 1 Cr 42, 7 Ju 87, 1 Ju 88
Total claims by P-40's 53.5
Total claims by allied fighters 85

The following losses are also indicated:
CASUALTIES
Bf 109
- 34 shot down, 7 crash landed (I counted 3 Bf 109E, about 10 G, and the rest F)
MC 202 - 10 shot down, 8 crash landed
Cr 42 - 6 shot down, 4 crash landed
He 111 - 1
Ju 87 - 13
Ju 88 - 1
Ju 52 -3
Total fighters lost - 44 shot down, 19 crash landed
Total aircraft lost - 62 shot down, 19 crash landed
Spit V - 10 shot down, 1 crash landed
Spit IV (Recon) -1 shot down
US P-40F -3 shot down, 3 crash landed
Kittyhawk II* -7 shot down, 1 crash landed
Kittyhawk III** -13 shot down, 2 crash landed
Kittyhawk I -13 shot down, 5 crash landed
Tomahawk -3 shot down, 1 crash landed
Hurricane IIC -17 shot down, 2 crash landed
A-20 / Boston -4 Shot down
B-25 -1 Shot down
Bisley - 1 Shot down

So I think this shows us that pilots flying Hurricanes made 3 claims for 17 losses, while P-40 pilots made 53 claims for 39 losses. (32 of these claims were by later model types). Which is an indication of which types were the most heavily engaged.
Not surprisingly Spitfires did by far the best, with 31 claims for only 10 losses.

But a subsequent post (598) also makes the interesting observation that Spitfires only flew missions on 15 days during that month, while P-40s flew missions on 25 days. It doesn't say how many Hurricanes flew. But this I think would be because the Spitfires were mostly flying short range patrols (basically CAP) while the P-40s were escorting the bombers and fighter-bombers (including Hurricanes) by that point.


All in all, I think this shows us what the actual role of the Hurricane was by this point. Again, I never claimed that P-40s replaced all Hurricanes in all units for all purposes.

When the war in the Far East broke out in Dec 1941, 4 more Hurricane squadrons en route U.K. to ME were diverted to the Far East.

From July 1943, 2 of the SAAF Kittyhawk squadrons converted to Spitfire V followed by 4 squadrons to Mustangs between April & Nov 1944, leaving only 250, 450 and 11SAAF with Kittyhawks when the war in Europe ended.
Italy and Sicily are in Europe, and you are again forgetting the five US fighter groups flying P-40s, plus by that time a couple of Free French squadrons. Some of the US Fighter Groups were still flying P-40s over Anzio (and doing quite well).

351 (Yugoslav) squadron operated Hurricanes from July 1944 to the end of the war alongside 6 squadron as part of the Balkan Air Force.

Spitfires began to arrive on Malta at the end of Feb 1942. The first squadron operational in the Western Desert was 145 squadron in May 1942, followed by 601 in June (its aircraft having spent a month on so on Malta) and 92 in Aug (it had left the U.K. in Feb with 145 but lack of Spitfires in Egypt delayed its becoming operational).

More Hurricane squadrons arrived in the Med as part of the support for Operation Torch, before the general conversion to Spitfires started in early-mid 1943. But in April 1943 there were still over 20 Hurricane squadrons spread from Algeria to Iran.
I believe most of which were no longer being used in combat (not a lot of action in places like Iran)
 
The data in that post is apparently from Mediterranean Air War series by Shores et al.

In this post, there is a list of units taken from Shores MAW II, pages 365-368, a raid on 9 Oct 1942:

92 Sqn RAF (Spitfire Vc)
301 Sqn RAF (Spitfire Vc)
250 Sqn RAF (Kittyhawk III)
450 Sqn RAAF (Kittyhawk III)
5 Sqn SAAF (Tomahawk IIb)
2 Sqn SAAF (Kittyhawk I)
4 Sqn SAAF (Kittyhawk I)
33 Sqn RAF (Hurricane IIc)
213 Sqn RAF (Hurricane IIc)
238 Sqn RAF (Hurricane IIc)
335 Sqn RAF (Hurricane IIc)
1 SAAF (Hurricane IIc)
64 Sqn / 57 FG USAAF (P-40F)
65 Sqn / 57 FG USAAF (P-40F)

So that is seven P-40 squadrons, five Hurricane, and two Spitfire. It's not the whole DAF at the time but it gives us an idea.
 
So you are now expanding the discussion from the RAF and Commonwealth squadrons to include the USAAF and into 1943.

The first USAAF FG in Africa was the 57th which didn't leave the USA until 1 July 1942 on the USS Ranger which took them to Takoradi to be flown across Africa to join the 9th AF in Egypt. It only became operational in Aug 1942. The other P-40 FG didn't arrive until After the start of Operation Torch on 8th Nov 1942.

As for the Hurricane squadrons in early 1943, most (at least 16) fell under the command of Headquarters, Air Defences, Middle East and were strung out at bases from the Canal Zone to Sousse in southern Tunisia. That is a distance of about 1,000 miles. Just because the land war and related air support moved on to Tunisia, Sicily and then Italy in 1943 and that Hurricanes were not so involved in combat with enemy aircraft does not mean that there was not vital operational work to be carried out. Supply convoys, both naval and truck, still had to run from Egypt or bases further forward to support the 8th Army as it moved forward and needed fighter cover (The first through convoy from Gibraltar to Alexandria didn't occur until the end of May 1943, after the German surrender in North Africa). About half the assault shipping for Operation Husky in July staged out of Egypt and needed fighter protection. German anti-shipping operations went on in the Med until until mid-1944 with strikes against many convoys routing east from Gibraltar in early 1944. The heavy bomber bases and coastal strike bases established in the Benghazi area to operate over Southern Europe and the Aegean needed protected from potential enemy action at least until early 1944 when they moved forward to the Foggia area in Italy. The Luftwaffe maintained bases in Greece & Crete throughout this period.

By way of example on 1 May 1943 the Germans launched an evening anti-shipping attack on a convoy north of Benghazi with 19 bombers and 6 torpedo bombers that resulted in a British tanker being sunk. Aircraft from 2 Hurricane squadrons were present as escort and shot down a Ju88A-4 and a Heinkel He111H-11.
 
So you are now expanding the discussion from the RAF and Commonwealth squadrons to include the USAAF and into 1943.

The first USAAF FG in Africa was the 57th which didn't leave the USA until 1 July 1942 on the USS Ranger which took them to Takoradi to be flown across Africa to join the 9th AF in Egypt. It only became operational in Aug 1942. The other P-40 FG didn't arrive until After the start of Operation Torch on 8th Nov 1942.

The first several months of fighting by the 57th FG units (starting with the 66 fighter sqn) they were literally part of an RAF fighter Wing (239 Wing / 211 Group). So it's actually rather difficult to tease it out. I don't think I'm "expanding the discussion" if we are talking about the combat record of these two fighter types in the Middle East and Mediterranean. What difference does it make if US, Australian, British, or South African pilots were flying them?

US and British units were under a joint command in the Middle East, I don't think this is news. And if anyone though Hurricanes were appropriate for the US units to fly they could have easily had them (they did have units flying Spitfires after all) .
As for the Hurricane squadrons in early 1943, most (at least 16) fell under the command of Headquarters, Air Defences, Middle East

... which was not where the front line fighter units were assigned ...

and were strung out at bases from the Canal Zone to Sousse in southern Tunisia. That is a distance of about 1,000 miles. Just because the land war and related air support moved on to Tunisia, Sicily and then Italy in 1943 and that Hurricanes were not so involved in combat with enemy aircraft does not mean that there was not vital operational work to be carried out. Supply convoys, both naval and truck, still had to run from Egypt or bases further forward to support the 8th Army as it moved forward and needed fighter cover (The first through convoy from Gibraltar to Alexandria didn't occur until the end of May 1943, after the German surrender in North Africa). About half the assault shipping for Operation Husky in July staged out of Egypt and needed fighter protection.

Yes and I'm telling you that by the time of operation Husky (July-Aug 43) almost all of that fighter protection was provided by Kittyhawks, Spitfires, and P-38s... and some by Seafires.

You want to give me some examples of fighter missions (i.e., not carrying bombs) done by Hurricane units during the invasion of Sicily? I don't think they were even using them as fighter bombers there were they?

One other problem that Hurricanes had was that their range was very limited so when it came to protecting convoys, here again it was more often Kittyhawks, sometimes Spitfires, sometimes P-38s or Beaufighters. Hurricanes were engaged a few times but pretty limited. Just like yes, Hurricane pilots made some claims during Oct of 1942 but it was a very small number.

German anti-shipping operations went on in the Med until until mid-1944 with strikes against many convoys routing east from Gibraltar in early 1944. The heavy bomber bases and coastal strike bases established in the Benghazi area to operate over Southern Europe and the Aegean needed protected from potential enemy action at least until early 1944 when they moved forward to the Foggia area in Italy. The Luftwaffe maintained bases in Greece & Crete throughout this period.

By way of example on 1 May 1943 the Germans launched an evening anti-shipping attack on a convoy north of Benghazi with 19 bombers and 6 torpedo bombers that resulted in a British tanker being sunk. Aircraft from 2 Hurricane squadrons were present as escort and shot down a Ju88A-4 and a Heinkel He111H-11.
Ok, so they fought a few coastal patrol missions, fair enough. Does that change anything I said?
 
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Hurricane was basically done as a fighter in the Middle East by mid 1942 at the latest. P-40 was still being used into early 1944 (Anzio) and was still scoring victories up to that time.
 
I will grant you one thing though, there seems to be a notable discrepancy between the kind of performance a Hurricane II gave in England vs. the outcomes you saw in the Middle East (and I think in Burma too). Maybe the major part of the issue was really that Vokes filter. If the speed dropped 30 mph that is fairly drastic. The thing was enormous and obviously caused pretty severe drag.

I always assumed the difference in the operational history between Hurricane and P-40 was more about roll and dive, but it could have been as simple as bad luck with a tropical adaptation.

And there is another thing, I believe the Hurricane actually destroyed more enemy aircraft than the P-40, or at least there were more claims, because of the enormous number of air combats during the Battle of Britain, plus the Battle of France, and 3000 Hurricanes were sent to Russia, and various other conflicts too including early days in the Middle East. Wikipedia says 1700 Luftwaffe planes lost in the BoB and 1428 in the Battle of France.

I think a fairly large chunk of Axis aircraft lost in the BoB were to Hurricanes (someone here probably knows the numbers). I gather that at least 250 Hurricanes were lost during the Battle of France they must have caused some damage. I don't know that much about the Hurricanes used in Russia but 3000 of them had to do some damage.
 
I will grant you one thing though, there seems to be a notable discrepancy between the kind of performance a Hurricane II gave in England vs. the outcomes you saw in the Middle East (and I think in Burma too). Maybe the major part of the issue was really that Vokes filter. If the speed dropped 30 mph that is fairly drastic. The thing was enormous and obviously caused pretty severe drag.

I always assumed the difference in the operational history between Hurricane and P-40 was more about roll and dive, but it could have been as simple as bad luck with a tropical adaptation.
Also have to consider operating in a higher density altitude
 
29th May.

Eighty years ago
today the Boomerang lifted skywards on its first flight.


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Out of respect for this "priceless" aeroplane many post-war Australians adorned their home exteriors with the Boomerang emblem.

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