A6M - Germany Japan Technology Exchange Missed Opportunity?

[Admiral Beez]

The greatest Japanese gift to the Germans would have been type 22 10c, radar and radar detector and some other interesting devices for depth keeping.

Not the Long Lance?

 

[Shortround6]

Long lance was a surface ship torpedo.
it was 24 in in diameter and weighed almost 3 tons.

Since the Germans had very few surface ships capable of action at the same time after Norway a few Long Lance torpedoes here or there would make very little difference.
Even the Japanese didn't use it in their subs.
launched in mass during a fleet action it was designed to out range many medium anti-destroyer guns and with it's 1000lb warhead deliver crippling blows to the largest enemy battleships.

Even at the highest speed setting (shortest range) it's range exceeded the detection range of most German Subs.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Long lance was a surface ship torpedo.
it was 24 in in diameter and weighed almost 3 tons.

Since the Germans had very few surface ships capable of action at the same time after Norway a few Long Lance torpedoes here or there would make very little difference.
Even the Japanese didn't use it in their subs.
launched in mass during a fleet action it was designed to out range many medium anti-destroyer guns and with it's 1000lb warhead deliver crippling blows to the largest enemy battleships.

Even at the highest speed setting (shortest range) it's range exceeded the detection range of most German Subs.

But Japanese aerial torpedoes were also damned good -- and a damned sight better than any German fish of the time -- and so if we generalize to "torpedo technology", the point is still apt, don't you think?

 

[Shortround6]

Were the Japanese torpedoes better or much better? or did it tend to swap back and forth a bit?

Best German aircraft torpedo was actually Italian.

The G3Ms that attacked the Prince of Wales and Repulse used a design that was about 10 years old and had a 331lb charge, they ran 2200yds at 41-43 kts.
The G4Ms that attacked the Prince of Wales and Repulse used a design that was s bit newer (modified from the old) and had a 452lb charge, they also ran 2200yds at 41-43 kts.
Modified versions of this torpedo were used at Pearl Harbor. At some point in 1942 a torpedo with a 529lb charge was introduced. same range and speed.
Later versions could be dropped at greater speeds and heights.

Italian torpedo used by the Germans as the F5W used a 441lb charge (old versions had 375lbs) and would run 3300yds at 40 kts.

I have no idea of the depth keeping or accuracy of either type.

The German F5B was in service by late 1941 and carried warheads starting at 397lbs and going to 551lbs. they could run 2200yds at 40 kts or 6560yds at 24 kts.

later versions got different tails (and noses?) to allow higher drop speeds and altitudes.

Again no info on accuracy or reliability.

But no great differences between the torpedoes.

 

[Koopernic]

But Japanese aerial torpedoes were also damned good -- and a damned sight better than any German fish of the time -- and so if we generalize to "torpedo technology", the point is still apt, don't you think?

The Italians, Japanese and British produced competent torpedo's with the Italian and Japanese probably at the top of the heap in terms of release limits (altitude, speed) from an aircraft but the UK not far behined and ahead in many ways.

The United States and Germany clearly had severe problems with both their sub launched torpedos and their air dropped.

However the German problems were solved very quickly.

During the Norwegien campaign the air powered German u-boat torpedo had 1/ Faulty pistol so it didn't detonate on impact 2/ unreliable magnetic infuence fuse and 3/ a faulty depth keeping mechanism, when operating submerged for long periods the barometric reference chamber leaked and developed a wrong reference pressure and so the torpedos raqn too deep.


The German Navy fixed its problem very quickly by copying the British pistol, removing the magnetic influence fuse and fixing the depth keeping problem. They latter introduced a proximity fuse that was essentially a two coil metal detector and then moved to a silent bubble free electric torpedo.

By 1942 they had homing torpedo'(two types that homed on cavitating escorts and normal types for cargo ships) and a little latter a zig zag torpedo that turned around it it missed and ran through the convoy again. By the end of the war they were testing hydrogen peroxide propelled torpedos.

The solution to the air launched torpedo problem was to use Italian torpedo's generally regarded as at least as good as the Japanese.

I suspect that Japanese probably couldn't help the Germans more than the Italians actually did.

 

[Koopernic]

Not the Long Lance?

Definitely not a mere torpedo.

Thye story of Japanese radar is interesting. In 1937 they experimented with a doppler beam system to help ships keep formation.

However it was not until 1941 when a Japanese delegation visited Germany and was shown Freya, Seetakt and Wurzburg radars and was told that the Allies were using radar that the Japanese released they had fallen behind. Amazingly within 5 months of returning to Japan the Japanese were deplyoyitng 3 radars. A 4m land based search radar, a 1.5m ship based air warning and ranging radar and in April 1942 aboard 3 cruisers a 10cm Type 22 microwave surface search radar.

Assuming the Japanse communicate their radars specification, performance, frequency and design to the Germans the war probably changes dramatically.
1 The Germans can produced a copy of the type 22 and now have a small compact radar for torpedo boats, uboats etc.
2 The Germans dont disband their own microwave effort in 1942.
3 When Coastal Command ASV Mark III 9cm microwave radar is introduced in early 1943 the Germans U-boats are ready with a detector which allows the U-boat to submerge in good time.
4 When a H2S radar is recovered from a Sterling Bomber in December 1942 the Germans merely learn how to make a better magnetron and quickly copy H2S
5 A whole range of German microwave radars that start appearing in late 1944 instead appear in late 1943 for night fighters, u-boats and FLAK direction.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Definitely not a mere torpedo.

Thye story of Japanese radar is interesting. In 1937 they experimented with a doppler beam system to help ships keep formation.

However it was not until 1941 when a Japanese delegation visited Germany and was shown Freya, Seetakt and Wurzburg radars and was told that the Allies were using radar that the Japanese released they had fallen behind. Amazingly within 5 months of returning to Japan the Japanese were deplyoyitng 3 radars. A 4m land based search radar, a 1.5m ship based air warning and ranging radar and in April 1942 aboard 3 cruisers a 10cm Type 22 microwave surface search radar.

Assuming the Japanse communicate their radars specification, performance, frequency and design to the Germans the war probably changes dramatically.
1 The Germans can produced a copy of the type 22 and now have a small compact radar for torpedo boats, uboats etc.
2 The Germans dont disband their own microwave effort in 1942.
3 When Coastal Command ASV Mark III 9cm microwave radar is introduced in early 1943 the Germans U-boats are ready with a detector which allows the U-boat to submerge in good time.
4 When a H2S radar is recovered from a Sterling Bomber in December 1942 the Germans merely learn how to make a better magnetron and quickly copy H2S
5 A whole range of German microwave radars that start appearing in late 1944 instead appear in late 1943 for night fighters, u-boats and FLAK direction.

Japanese surface radar would also make a world of difference. Kirishima would have known that she was facing two battleships (USS South Dakota and USS Washington) rather than one, for instance.

 

[GrauGeist]

By 1942 they had homing torpedo'(two types that homed on cavitating escorts and normal types for cargo ships) and a little latter a zig zag torpedo that turned around it it missed and ran through the convoy again.

The USN's MK 14 also had a homing feature - although it wasn't intended nor welcomed...

 

[Koopernic]

Japanese surface radar would also make a world of difference. Kirishima would have known that she was facing two battleships (USS South Dakota and USS Washington) rather than one, for instance.

The Kongo class did receive Type 22 radar. Kirishima probably missed out on her fitout.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The USN's MK 14 also had a homing feature - although it wasn't intended nor welcomed...

Yeah, just inviting an own goal with that feature.

 

[Akuma]

Greetings All,

Reflecting on a number of recent threads in the Forum featuring extended discussions about long range escort fighters, Luftwaffe bombers capabilities, early Spitfires, Hurricanes and Zeros, it occurred to me that one of the missed opportunities of the Germany Japan Technology Exchange was that it appears Japan never shared the design of the Zero at a time when the design of a long range fighter could have been useful to the Luftwaffe, prior to the Battle of Britain. Even if Japan had shared design details, I don't believe it would have altered the path Germany took. It would have required a suspension of the bias the Nazis had against non-German engineering as well as a massive improvement in the Nazi procurement system for the Luftwaffe to benefit. That said, I would be interested in your thoughts about a German advancement of the basic Zero design pre-Battle of Britain? To me, there are a number of obvious questions:

1. Who would be selected to advance the design? Heinkel seems like an obvious choice given the effort put into the HE 100D
2. What power plant? The BMW 801 is quite a bit larger and heavier and would require an entire new airframe. The Rhone-Gnome?
3. How much weight would be aded to the airframe for armor?
4. Would the Luftwaffe even understand the value of a long range fighter?

Your thoughts?

Your question about Germany having a long range fighter brings up, to me anyway, an interesting point. I'm not sure many people know this. During the Spanish Civil War the Condor Legion found that the Heinkel 51 airplanes, that they and the Spanish Nationalists were using for ground Attack, lacked the range and endurance for the Spanish theater. To correct this, the legion requested and was given what I think were auxiliary fuel tanks which attached to the underside of the machines. I do not know if they were actual drop tanks. I would think that the German aircraft industry was capable of coming up with drop tanks if they were already using these. This technology was known and available at least a year before the invasion of France. So the question becomes why was it not applied to the 109 at that time?

 

[ThomasP]

I have wondered if the reason may not have been political in nature. As soon as you are known to be fitting your aircraft with drop tanks, the potential enemy knows that you are able to reach beyond your borders. In theory, even after Germany began rearming, they had to be careful of giving the UK, France, etc, a clear reason to think that they were preparing to wage war at longer ranges. Maybe?

 

[tomo pauk]

Your question about Germany having a long range fighter brings up, to me anyway, an interesting point. I'm not sure many people know this. During the Spanish Civil War the Condor Legion found that the Heinkel 51 airplanes, that they and the Spanish Nationalists were using for ground Attack, lacked the range and endurance for the Spanish theater. To correct this, the legion requested and was given what I think were auxiliary fuel tanks which attached to the underside of the machines. I do not know if they were actual drop tanks. I would think that the German aircraft industry was capable of coming up with drop tanks if they were already using these. This technology was known and available at least a year before the invasion of France. So the question becomes why was it not applied to the 109 at that time?

Why - because bombers were supposed to do all of the killing by themselves, with these bombers unloading their bombs before defending fighters can be scrambled. Long-range fighters - Bf110s here - were to roam close to the enemy airfields gunning down the meagre defenders that still managed to take off. Plan worked between September 1939 and June 1940, in April 1941 and possibly in June 1941.
It will took integrated air-defense network and parity in number of fighters to prove the LW plans wrong.
Hs 123 was too carrying drop tank during the SCW, specified by Henschell (ie. nothing ad-hoc in this case). Luckily, Luftwaffe was not expecting that Bf 109s will need drop tanks until too late in BoB.

I have wondered if the reason may not have been political in nature. As soon as you are known to be fitting your aircraft with drop tanks, the potential enemy knows that you are able to reach beyond your borders. In theory, even after Germany began rearming, they had to be careful of giving the UK, France, etc, a clear reason to think that they were preparing to wage war at longer ranges. Maybe?

Bf 109s would've gotten drop tank installations during the winter of 1939/40 if Luftwaffe wanted it - they are already in war after all.

 

[Akuma]

As far as the actual aviation technology I don't think the Japanese had much to offer. The Germans had excellent seaplane designs, their bombers were designed around the concept of supporting surface forces, not needing the range operations over the Pacific made compulsory and their fighters were designed as a continuation of the concept of vertical combat that they were implementing at the end of WWI.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As far as the actual aviation technology I don't think the Japanese had much to offer.

The Japanese should have never entered any agreements and especially alliances with Germany. The Germans had not economic influence or territory in the Pacific and had nothing to offer Japan. Meanwhile, Japan's agreements with Germany just got the former into more diplomatic isolation. The 1936 Anti-Comintern Pact just annoyed Japan's Soviet neighbour, with Germany offering no help when it came to battle against the Communists.

 

[Akuma]

The Japanese should have never entered any agreements and especially alliances with Germany. The Germans had not economic influence or territory in the Pacific and had nothing to offer Japan. Meanwhile, Japan's agreements with Germany just got the former into more diplomatic isolation. The 1936 Anti-Comintern Pact just annoyed Japan's Soviet neighbour, with Germany offering no help when it came to battle against the Communists.

All of which leads to the question; what were the Japanese thinking?

 

[ThomasP]

Probably the same thing that the UK, France, and Poland were thinking when they formed their treaties.

 

[The Basket]

Japan believed Germany would win war.
So if Germany wins and defeats Brits Frenchies and Dutch then their Asian colonies are free real estate.

And the Japanese want them Asian colonies.

And Japan don't like USSR. So German Japanese pact sounds logical to me.

 

[ThomasP]

Enemies of our enemies (real or perceived, current or potential) are (may be) our friends.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's also interesting to note that many of the hotly contested islands in the South Pacific were former German territories.
Northern New Guinea
Northern Solomons
Marshalls
Marianas (except Guam)
Carolines
Bismark Archipelago
Bougainville Island

Nauru was bypassed by the Allies and Samoa avoided conflict entirely.