Admiralty aircraft fuels and lubricants as of 1 April 1943.

Shortround6 said:

I believe the Kestrel and Lion used water.

Glycol storage is minimal, unlike engine oil, the water and later glycol was supposed to stay in the engine.
Oil was used up in flight, the coolant was not supposed to be used up.

not saying there weren't leaks but they didn't usually require several gallons after each flight.

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Good point. But on oil, if the rings and valve seats and guides are well designed, manufactured and installed shouldn't oil burn be minimal? Several gallons of oil per flight sounds like a recipe for rapid carbon buildup and compression/power loss.

The engines of the time were designed to use oil and were rated on how much oil they used per horsepower hour.
PR Spitfires and Spitfires with 170 gallon ferry tanks had modified nose cowlings fitted to hold larger oil tanks.
The balance and weight charts of many planes show different oil capacities depending on the fuel load.
Drop tanks often require extra oil.

Piston rings were not the same as modern cars.

This is an "oiler" in front of KB.865. Looks to me it was substantially delivered in bulk! Dad with his crew in the photo. Probably March, 1945.

Jim

While I have found documents with the calculations for "All Up Weight" that include bomb and petrol loads, I have not found anything that includes the gallons of oil carried. I wonder if this was the same for all operations and part of the empty weight of the aircraft?

I believe this is for No. 44 Rhodesia Squadron:


Jim

JDCAVE said:

This is an "oiler" in front of KB.865. Looks to me it was substantially delivered in bulk! Dad with his crew in the photo. Probably March, 1945.

Jim

View attachment 661878

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Wonderful photo.

JDCAVE said:

While I have found documents with the calculations for "All Up Weight" that include bomb and petrol loads, I have not found anything that includes the gallons of oil carried. I wonder if this was the same for all operations and part of the empty weight of the aircraft?

I believe this is for No. 44 Rhodesia Squadron:

Bomb aimers briefing 17 February 1944 · IBCC Digital Archive

IBCC Digital Archive

ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk

Jim

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I don't believe oil was ever listed in the "empty" weight of aircraft.

Please go to Mr. Williams web site as listed in his post and look through some of the tests.
Also look at some of the manuals for the aircraft both on his site and in the manual section on this site.

Oil may have been in the "empty equipped" category of weight but that different. It also may not be right.
Radios were often included in empty equipped but oil WAS a consumable and use varied with the length of the flight.

For instance from Mr. Williams site under the P-40 at the bottom is operation instructions for the P-40D
and we find
Max. Allowable Oil Consumption.
Normal Rated Power (100%);.................................13.3 qts/hr
Max. Cruising (75%)....................................................10.0 qts/hr
Minimum specific fuel flow.......................................5-7 qts/hr

Lower in the page we can find Oil capacity normal 18 gals (includes 5 gal in system) Alternate load 21 gal (includes 5 gal in system).

Alternate load may include what was used when the 52 US gallon drop tank was used.

You can many such examples.


shows 42 gallons of oil for a load of 465 gallons of fuel but a load of 60 gallons of oil for a load of 962 gallons of fuel.
You do need to keep some oil in the system for engine as it is running, the oil lines and oil coolers and a amount of oil in the bottom of the tank to allow the air bubbles to dissipate before the oil is sent back into the system.

The Pilot's and Engineer's notes for the Lancaster, Page 9, have oil tanks for each engine as 37.5 gallons oil capacity with 4.5 gallons air space. That works out to almost exactly 300 lbs each engine when full. There is an Air Publication (AP 1464/C37) that is referenced for specification on Oil. I do not have that publication. There seems to be a feature on the Engineers panel on the Lancaster, called "oil dilution button" one for each engine. Not sure of its purpose.

Jim

Oil dilution was used in cold temperatures to mix fuel with the oil when the plane had already landed and they were getting ready to shut the engines down.
The fuel would be mixed with the oil and after a certain numbers of minutes at idle or high idle the engine/s would be shut down. The engine/s would contain up to 20% fuel in the oil to make the oil thinner so the engine/s would be easier to start in cold weather.
When starting up the engine/s would be idled for a number of minutes to warm everything up and the aviation fuel would evaporate out of the oil after a while.
There were no multi grade (variable viscosity) oils and the only other two tricks they had, aside from setting fires under the engines, was to drain the oil when shutting down and heat the oil before pouring it back into the plane or trying to drain the oil and use a special oil for starting, drain that oil and then refill with standard oil.
Either procedure ( and I am not sure of the 2nd) can result in pockets of cold oil in the engines and lines and oil coolers even with warm oil poured into the tank and possibly special fill points.
The oil dilution technique worked, it offered pretty uniform oil consistency through the system if the correct amount of time had been used at shut down. It was somewhat fool proof as excess fuel tended to evaporate with the heat of the engine/s while running at idle. The diluted oil didn't seem to give much trouble at idle or near idle speeds and with no load on the engines. Just make sure to do a thorough warm up before taxing out for the next flight.

JDCAVE said:

do you happen to know if the Hydrierwerke Scholven A.G. plant at Scholven Buer was operational in late December, 1944? I have a reference that indicates it may not have been serviceable. Dad was part of the force that bombed it December 29, 1944.

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I agree the oil was not part of the empty weight. Using the weights breakdown in Avro Lancaster by Harry Holmes,
weight of structure + power plants + fuel and oil tanks = empty weight,
empty weight + fixed military load = tare weight,
tare weight + crew + removable military load + fuel and oil + bombs + carriers = gross weight.

The Bomber Command Official History reproduces (some of) Speer's fuel reports to Hitler, like in AIR 8/1019. While the RAF Air Historical Branch did translations of German Air Raid Damage Reports. I cannot answer the question about whether the plant was in service attacked on 29/30 December 1944, the following is more about noting the different names being used and what sort of German reports may be available. Year is 1944.

GELSENKIRCHEN E.2700 - Lw. Ops. Staff, E.2606 - Min. of Arm. & War Prod, 12/13 JUNE, 14/15 JUNE. During the night of 12/13 June an attack was made on the Gelsenberg aviation fuel plant (in Gelsenkirchen / Horst) which, in view of the level of its production, is second in importance to Poelitz. All the vital parts of the plant were heavily damaged and there will be no production for at least three months.

During the night of 14/15 June an attack was made on the plant at Scholven (in Gelsenkirchen-Baur), which is in fifth place on the production scale (directly after Leuna). Production was halted temporarily at the plant which sustained comparatively slight damage but will be resumed in a few days. The monthly loss of production amounts to 35,000 tons or 17% of production for the whole of Germany, bringing the total loss for Germany to 140,000 tons a month or 73%. Gelsenberg will not be ready for production again for several months.

In addition Document E.2606 gives details of raids on the Scholven Hydrogenation Plant, of which the following were the heaviest;


It is also reported that 291,433 sq. metres of floor space were destroyed. An 8 March 1945 raid report says the hydrogenation works in Scholven and the Gelsenberg-Benzin A.G. were hit.

Geoffrey Sinclair said:

I agree the oil was not part of the empty weight. Using the weights breakdown in Avro Lancaster by Harry Holmes,
weight of structure + power plants + fuel and oil tanks = empty weight,
empty weight + fixed military load = tare weight,
tare weight + crew + removable military load + fuel and oil + bombs + carriers = gross weight....

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This document from Boscombe down shows the calculations in considerable detail.


I referenced this document in an earlier thread, as dad had 7 ops on this aircraft. However, my main question is, did the amount of oil carried vary between operations depending on range? I have yet to see support from wartime documents that it did vary. Certainly fuel varied between operations and the Form "B"'s and other documents support that but noting yet on oil. The only documents I have found on the calculation of "All-up-weights" were outlined above (post 24) and none of these mention oil.

Jim

Geoffrey Sinclair said:

In addition Document E.2606 gives details of raids on the Scholven Hydrogenation Plant, of which the following were the heaviest;

Date	Time	A/C.	H.E.	On Works
22. 6.	0142 - 1157	200​	800​	33​
19. 7.	0126 - 1040	350​	2000​	550​
26. 8.	1218 - 1231	80​	600​	400​
12. 9.	1328 - 1405	500​	2500​	350​
6. 10.	1657 - 1706	100​	500​	200​
1. 11.	1354 - 1402	200​	1500​	200​
11.11.	1120 - 1128	150​	800​	40​
Total:	All	1580​	8700​	1773​

It is also reported that 291,433 sq. metres of floor space were destroyed. An 8 March 1945 raid report says the hydrogenation works in Scholven and the Gelsenberg-Benzin A.G. were hit.

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Geoffrey: Are you sure this table is for Scholven? The "Day Raid Sheets" and "Night Raid reports" do not record any attacks on Scholven on 11/11/1944. The Day-Raid sheets record the 3-Group attack on Castrop Rauxel on the day, 11th, and the Night Raid reports record that 5-Group attacked the Rhenania Ossage plant on the 11/12 and 1 and 8-Group attacked the Hoesch Benzin plant on the 11/12. The table does not provide details for the attack on Scholven on 29/12/1944, which was evidently devastating.

Jim

JDCAVE said:

Geoffrey: Are you sure this table is for Scholven? The "Day Raid Sheets" and "Night Raid reports" do not record any attacks on Scholven on 11/11/1944.

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Yes, from Mighty Eighth War Diary, 11 November 1944, 1st Bombardment Division, 129 despatched 100 attacking the primary target Gesenkirchen/Buer (note name used) oil refinery with 236.6 short tons of bombs, 1 B-17 written off, 1 damaged, 7 men killed in action. Other reports reproduced include Schweinfurth (sic) 17 August and 14 October 1943, Regensburg 17 August 1943, the April and May 1944 USAAF raids on Berlin and so on, it is not just RAF raids.

Lancaster Weights, unfortunately Australian Archives MP450/1 123 Avro "Lancaster" description & performance is not available online, it has a very detailed weight break down, for example canopy 180 pounds, fuselage windows 63 pounds, access doors for fuel tanks 150 pounds. Including a breakdown of the fixed and removable military loads, dinghy 35 pounds fixed, 54 pounds removable, F.24 camera 8 fixed, 39 removable pounds.

Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Yes, from Mighty Eighth War Diary, 11 November 1944, 1st Bombardment Division,…

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Sorry, I thought those were supposed to be RAF numbers…

Jim

By no means definitive, but highly suggestive that Scholven was out of action from August 1944 onwards.

Thanks so much for that Calum. What is the reference for that table?

Jim

JDCAVE said:

Thanks so much for that Calum. What is the reference for that table?

Jim

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BIOS-FR/001, original page number 49

Shortround6 said:

Oil dilution was used in cold temperatures to mix fuel with the oil when the plane had already landed and they were getting ready to shut the engines down.
The fuel would be mixed with the oil and after a certain numbers of minutes at idle or high idle the engine/s would be shut down. The engine/s would contain up to 20% fuel in the oil to make the oil thinner so the engine/s would be easier to start in cold weather.
When starting up the engine/s would be idled for a number of minutes to warm everything up and the aviation fuel would evaporate out of the oil after a while.
There were no multi grade (variable viscosity) oils and the only other two tricks they had, aside from setting fires under the engines, was to drain the oil when shutting down and heat the oil before pouring it back into the plane or trying to drain the oil and use a special oil for starting, drain that oil and then refill with standard oil.
Either procedure ( and I am not sure of the 2nd) can result in pockets of cold oil in the engines and lines and oil coolers even with warm oil poured into the tank and possibly special fill points.
The oil dilution technique worked, it offered pretty uniform oil consistency through the system if the correct amount of time had been used at shut down. It was somewhat fool proof as excess fuel tended to evaporate with the heat of the engine/s while running at idle. The diluted oil didn't seem to give much trouble at idle or near idle speeds and with no load on the engines. Just make sure to do a thorough warm up before taxing out for the next flight.

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Not certain if this info is general or specific to a particular type? Certainly, most types had specific proceedures. For most of the DB601/603/605 family and other German engines, oil dilution was specified for the anticipated start-up temperature. The actual dilution was referenced from a table and the procedure was timed to give the required dilution. Cold Start-up for Quick take-off was to be only just before the take-off, without delay, no warm-up for Quick take-off mixtures. The actual start was achieved with the use of Acetylene gas in extreme cold and, priming fuel with ether mixture could also be used.
The warming of engines with fires was a desperate measure that is not in the normal manuals. However, the Bf 109 did have a specific paraffin heater with canvas enclosure that could attach under the engine for heating in extreme cold. There are also examples of special mobile warm-air heater trailers with flexible delivery ducting that seem to have been used.
Beyond these points, the problem with cold oil in engines is the extremely high viscosity that occurs, giving very high pressures. The very high pressures show that the thick cold oil is not flowing properly in the galleries and, on many engines, this can result in oil starvation at bearings. Additionally, the oil pumps, drives and pipework can be damaged. This is why a maximum pressure is often stated for after-start oil pressure.
Cheers

Eng

I can add some detail to the DB605A "Cold starting" proceedures from the engine manual. Oil Dilution was used in different ratios for either Quick take-off or, normal cold take-off (where the engine was warmed-up after start). For fighter quick take off, oil dilution was used at all temperatures below +25*C, in increasing percentages at lower temperatures. Normal cold take off oil dilution began at +5*C and below. To help the actual starting, the special Volatile starting fuel (priming) was to be used for starting below -15*C and the advanced ignition timing device was also used. Below -30*C, Acetylene gas was used instead of the volatile starting fuel and, the warm-air heating of the injection pump, the fuel pump, the supercharger and the fuel pipes was required.
So, based on that, we can see that external warming of the engine was only mandated below -30*C.

Eng

This was how the RAF 2nd TAF were warming the Napier Sabres in Typhoons In winter 1944/45. Specialist vehicle to blow warm air through the radiator inlet.