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The 12Y-49 with the S-P supercharger was fitted to the D.520 Amélioré - a modified D.520 with some changes that were learned from the D.524 (These changes were planned to be made for all D.520-based platforms until the armistice stopped it from happening). The tests were later (1941), but it does give a pretty good indication as to how 520's fitted with the -49 would perform.
In the table I linked below, you can see that it was quite a significant boost to the base D.520 with the -45. It's just barely slower than the Bf 109 E-4/N at 570 kph / 354 mph compared to the E-4/N's 580 kph / 360 mph. That speed difference isn't huge, and becomes almost trivial when you remember that the D.520 was regularly able to outmanoeuvre the 109.
Rather than the Emils, the Friedrichs are the biggest concerns since those are much better performing and first show up in October. The D.525 and VG.35 with the -51 would be closer, but the F-1 is still a good bit ahead of both.
I've been struggling to find a chart or something for the D.525, since that had the 12Y-51 and was fitted with the S-P supercharger - as opposed to the HS supercharger fitted on the D.523. However I know they exist somewhere.We note in these same lists that the 12Y51 is planned with the pitiful home compressor!. With which the published performances are given. I do not know if the performances of the -51 with a P/S compressor have actually been established.
I've been struggling to find a chart or something for the D.525, since that had the 12Y-51 and was fitted with the S-P supercharger - as opposed to the HS supercharger fitted on the D.523. However I know they exist somewhere.
In the relevant Docavia books, it is the D523 (150 planned) that was to get 12Y-51+ S-P and D525 (30 planned) with 12Y-51 + H-S "high altitude supercharger".The improved D 520 (D520 amélioré) benefited above all from the tests carried out at the "Institut de mécanique des fluides de Banlèves".
Among the most significant elements, the fully faired landing gear housings and the oil radiator removed and replaced by a heat exchanger (on the engine's prestone circuit). And particular care given to the sealing of the intake air scoops - very important to recover a maximum of "ram effect". We can clearly see that the actual recovery altitude of the engine (6.900 m.) is well above that measured on bench.
The 12Y 49 differed from the -45 only by the S/C ratio, and many -45 engines were "retro-fitted" by simply changing the gears. The -49 was already in production at the end of 1939.
See here, note #9 on the left, on this 1939 document :
We note in these same lists that the 12Y51 is planned with the pitiful home superchager !. With which the published performances are given. I do not know if the performances of the -51 with a P/S compressor have actually been established.
Beautiful, beautiful indeedI just found an article on the post-1935 development of Gnome-Rhone radials, including the 14P, 14Ns, Rs, Ms, and 18 cylinders:
This finally confirms that the Rs had two-speed rather than two-stage superchargers, and is a surprisingly detailed article on the various technical developments of the engine types. May help better assess the potential of these engines. It is in pdf form, so relatively easier to run in a translator.
By the way, the French term "rouet" followed by figures in the 280-320mm) used here might refer to the impeller diameter you often discuss for other engine S/Cs. What was the record for those on US radials?Beautiful, beautiful indeed
It will take 2 years for the BMW to introduce the similar S/C (both the direct, axial intake and the impeller with curved vanes) on the - stillborn - 801E, and another 2 years for the 801S. It will also take 4 years for Britsol to introduce similar S/C on the 100 series Hercules.
Yes, for the 1st sentence.By the way, the French term "rouet" followed by figures in the 280-320mm) used here might refer to the impeller diameter you often discuss for other engine S/Cs. What was the record for those on US radials?
If I understand you correctly, this would mean that the French "R" radials (including possibly the 1939-40 Super Mars evolution of the 14M*, unless the 2-speed S-/C was for the postwar 14S), while possibly less-well refined on the pure engine side compared to the competition, might have benefitted from an earlier 2-speed efficient S/C with axial intake than at least British and German radials? If so, this might have gone some way towards alleviating any performance drawbacks from the engine side.
Yes, it is unfortunate that G-R didn't attempt to bring some of the easier changes from the 14R to some late 14Ns. IIRC, the 2-speed axial S/C can't be easily fitted to the 14N, so no luck here. But for all we know, there may not have been much more time to make such intermediates/hybrids before the 14R enters production.The 14N with the better S/C would've also been interesting. Soviets managed to make the M88B (engine that traces the lineage to the 14K) do 1000 HP at 6 km, and 1100 HP at 4 km. Italians did the similar with the Piaggio P.XIX.
Yes, it is unfortunate that G-R didn't attempt to bring some of the easier changes from the 14R to some late 14Ns. IIRC, the 2-speed axial S/C can't be easily fitted to the 14N, so no luck here. But for all we know, there may not have been much more time to make such intermediates/hybrids before the 14R enters production.
Of note in this article as well, the comments on the Bloch 175 engine housings/cowlings and the "Standard Groups" developped from them, which offered good aerodynamics while being much simpler to work with than the Mercier housings used on the LeO 451 bombers.
Thank you for this remarkably detailed and well-sourced article. I am French, but quite young and I must admit that old technical terminology can be confusing at times. I can only hope that sufficient sources exist for a similar article of comparable quality on the late developments of Hispano-Suiza engines that could bring new technical details to light.Thank you gentlemen for your comments and praise on my text, even if you can't always handle the whole subtleties of French language..
About the G&R 14N supercharger, I recall page 54, note 108, that Turboméca had made a deal with the French government to adapt its famous Szydlowski-Planiol S39 supercharger in the 14M and 14N-20 engines. Unfortunately, the June 1940 collapse prevented the project from being completed.
In any case, I think that this adaptation would have posed many problems because of the two weaknesses of the 14N: lack of a central crankshaft bearing, insufficient finning. Only a more evolued engine as the 14R, which corrected these two defects, could really take advantage of a high-efficiency supercharger. But the central-inlet one made by Gnome & Rhône had almost the same efficiency as the S-39, i.e. about 80%. Which confirms that the 14R-04 and successors surpercharger was really very good ! I also indicate (note 128) that the impeller tips speed, at 387 m/s peak, was largely supersonic.
About the 14S (14 M successor) and its supercharger, it is obviously a two-speed one from the start, as shown by the curves given on page 41: they were established on October 18, 1939 and have the two characteristic "peaks" of 2-speed supercharged engines (i.e. two rated altitudes in 1st and 2nd gear : 2.000 and 4.250 m.).
Moi aussiI can only hope that sufficient sources exist for a similar article of comparable quality on the late developments of Hispano-Suiza engines that could bring new technical details to light.
Moi aussi
the oil radiator removed and replaced by a heat exchanger (on the engine's prestone circuit).
Any further information why this was done? Notably this change was also done for the P-51H.
I'd guess there's less skin friction drag and turbulence caused by one bigger radiator than two small ones, and less piping, but OTOH you have an extra heat exchanger. Though liquid-liquid heat exchangers are quite compact and efficient, so maybe not much of a problem in practice.
I guess maybe the Soviet developments of the HS-12Y family? Considering the evolution of the GR 14R supercharger, this begs the question of whether Hispano-Suiza or Turboméca intended to make the same refinements to their superchargers for the 12Y/12Z. The S39 H3, if I recall, had a centrifugal setup to minimize length, but if this is accounted for in future aircraft noses or HS-12 developments, it would be nice to switch to an axial setup.My contribution about Hispano-Suiza history (in a few weeks... or monthes...) will be called "Histoire de l'architecture baroque - Tome CVII : Pays de l'Est".
(Do you guess what will be the subject ? )
But now I am working on Gnome-Rhone, the pre - 14R engines, i.e. série K, L and N.
I was wondering if you meant Soviet development of the 14K, but are you actually talking about the Romanian versions? Do you know if they went along the same lines as the 14N family or did they diverge quite a bit from them, maybe even as an intermediate between 14N and 14P/R?My contribution about Hispano-Suiza history (in a few weeks... or monthes...) will be called "Histoire de l'architecture baroque - Tome CVII : Pays de l'Est".
(Do you guess what will be the subject ? )
But now I am working on Gnome-Rhone, the pre - 14R engines, i.e. série K, L and N.
I was wondering if you meant Soviet development of the 14K, but are you actually talking about the Romanian versions? Do you know if they went along the same lines as the 14N family or did they diverge quite a bit from them, maybe even as an intermediate between 14N and 14P/R?
I would assume that they're getting Merlins.I think one of their main trouble would have been a reliable and powerful enough engine.