Advanced French Fighters vs 1942/1943 contemporaries (1 Viewer)

[TM06]

The whole VG.30 series seems to have stayed with the 14m2 wing?

From what I can find, all of them from VG.30 to VG.39Bis had the 14 m^2 wing with the sole exception of the VG.60 which was planned with a 17 m^2 wing.

Disregarding the Caudron series we do have Dewoitine going to a small wing (13m2 ?) with the 551.

The base D.551's wing was 13 m^2, but the D.553 and D.554 (the ones fitted with the 12Z) were planned to have a 2 m^2 extension of the wing surface for a 15 m^2 wing. However the M.520T was based primarily around the D.551 platform and had little in common with the base D.520, so the 17.3 m^2 wing is a reasonable possibility for the D.55x.

 

[tomo pauk]

but the D.553 and D.554 (the ones fitted with the 12Z) had a 2 m^2 extension of the wing surface for a 15 m^2 wing.

(my bold)
The word "had" might be pushing it.

 

[TM06]

(my bold)
The word "had" might be pushing it.

Were planned to have.
Better?

 

[tomo pauk]

And this is part of the problem for the French fighters. For weight a single 20mm and four 13.2mm guns is about the same as six 12.7mm/.50 cal guns. And the US screwed up the P-40D/E and Wildcat with that weight armament. They also put in more protection than some other nations did. US self sealing tanks were among the best but they were heavy. P-40 and Wildcat also didn't have their engines improve as much as needed in 1942/43 to stay first rank.

The last sentence quoted points to the crux of the matter - having hundreds of HP less at 15000-25000 ft when compared with the best was a far greater concern than having an extra pair of the HMGs installed. Even the small power increase, like what happened with the late 1942 V-1710s, made the performance figures of the P-40s and P-39s much better (if late by at least a year).
BTW - the P-39D was with an even greater firpower weight installed when compared with P-40E, yet it was lighter by about 1000 lb.
The 6-gun F4F was with the folding wing, that added a lot of weight by itself, while the whole Wildcat family was competing with Hurricanes for the title of who can make a draggier fighter - not good for perfomance.

USA (USAAC/AAF in this context) did screw up, but sometimes the airframe companies made a wrong turn, so to say. Sometimes it took the engine companies many precious months to came out with the engines with competitive power at altitude that is coupled with small drag and good/great reliability.
Combine all 3 factors, and the P-40E and P-39D happen.

 

[Shortround6]

From what I can find, all of them from VG.30 to VG.39Bis had the 14 m^2 wing with the sole exception of the VG.60 which was planned with a 17 m^2 wing.

I have spent about 15 minutes just trying to figure out what a VG.60 was. Lots of drawings, You can even buy models.
most or all (?) show/indicate a rather large radiator duct inside the rear fuselage, super P-51 style.
They show eight machine guns in the wing and most claim they are .50 cal'13.2mm. Great! 17m2 wing for the armament of a P-47. Wonder how that works.

Proposed engines are all over the place. Including
1,000 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 supercharged by a two-stage Sidlowsky-Planiol turbo-charger."
Late war or postwar they talk about a Jumo 213.
Yeah, plane about the size of a 109 with 960kg engine in the nose.
Some drawings show a larger plane than the 1940 version?

There are "what ifs" and there are fantasy planes.

Right now this seems to be leaning well into fantasy.

 

[Shortround6]

the P-39D was with an even greater firpower weight installed when compared with P-40E, yet it was lighter by about 1000 lb.

It may have been closer to 500-600lbs going by "design" weight.
P-40E was "designed" to fly with 120 US gallons. The internal tanks would hold 144.5 gal (pilots manual) and the ammo load was a little strange. 1410 rounds (235 per gun average) but there was room for 1870 rounds (311/2 average). 138lbs just in ammo if they filled the trays/boxes?

To me the killer of the P-40D/E was armament.

plane....................guns................ammo................misc.equip..................total...................with overload
P-40D...................256...................300.........................65.5............................621.5........................1059.5lbs (2460 rounds)
P-40E....................384...................423.........................94................................901............................1039lbs (1810 rounds)
P-40C...................244*.................356**.....................---***..........................600lbs***.................600lbs

* may include some of the misc.equip
** 380rpg of 50.cal/500rpg of .30
*** different charts, does not show misc. equip. but the per gun weight for the .50s is higher than for the P-40D/E

Wing/fuselage was stressed for that load (+ six 20lb bombs) Wing was about 100lbs heavier than a P-40C wing.
The misc. equip for the guns are the remote chargers and firing mechanisms (electric solenoids) and possibly the mounts.

The Army kept up the fiction of the 120 gallon fuel load for quite some time. Normal Gross weights for later normal models at least to the M are for 120 gal. How they were flown in combat is another story.

 

[TM06]

I have spent about 15 minutes just trying to figure out what a VG.60 was. Lots of drawings, You can even buy models.
most or all (?) show/indicate a rather large radiator duct inside the rear fuselage, super P-51 style.
They show eight machine guns in the wing and most claim they are .50 cal'13.2mm. Great! 17m2 wing for the armament of a P-47. Wonder how that works.

Proposed engines are all over the place. Including
1,000 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 supercharged by a two-stage Sidlowsky-Planiol turbo-charger."
Late war or postwar they talk about a Jumo 213.
Yeah, plane about the size of a 109 with 960kg engine in the nose.
Some drawings show a larger plane than the 1940 version?

There are "what ifs" and there are fantasy planes.

Right now this seems to be leaning well into fantasy.

It's an odd case.
The design was a preliminary sketch started Pre-Fall with the 12Y-51 and was totally abandoned during the occupation, however it was restarted after the Liberation with the Jumo 213E (Most likely an Arsenal 12H?) but was quickly abandoned again once jets became clearly superior to props.
I believe Arsenal used the radiator design from the VG.60 for the VG.70 jet fighter project. As far as I know it was an evolution of the radiator arrangement introduced on the VG.36 but taken up several notches in preparation for the stronger engines.
The amount of guns isn't impossible per say, but I think the designers at Arsenal were getting a bit too excited.
My main point is the expanded wing, showing that Arsenal did plan for larger wings on the VG.30 platform.

 

[Bretoal2]

1,000 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 supercharged by a two-stage Sidlowsky-Planiol turbo-charger."

They forgot water injection, variable octane fuel and belt driven camshaft with multi-timing.

Many "specialists" don't really know what is an engine....

 

[Shortround6]

The amount of guns isn't impossible per say, but I think the designers at Arsenal were getting a bit too excited.
My main point is the expanded wing, showing that Arsenal did plan for larger wings on the VG.30 platform.

A lot of people, who should have know better, specified too many guns in many planes in 1939-41.
As shown by some of the figures in the post on the P-40s using large numbers of .50cal/13.2mm guns gets really heavy, really quick.
The real problem is the ammo. The .50cal/13.2mm ammo is about 5 times heavier per round than 7.5-7.9/.30cal ammo.
This is also a bit sneaky as this larger .50cal/13.2mm ammo is around 30% heavier than the Italian/Japanese and German 12.7/13mm ammo.
Not only are the projectiles lighter but a British .5in/12.7mm round uses about 60% of the propellent that a US .50 does (or French 13.2mm) and the cartridge case is lighter in proportion. In the US .50 the cartridge case weighed more than the projectile.
A few somebody's had a sever case of brain fade. British were using eight 7.7s so using eight 12.7/13mm isn't that big a change? Even worse in imperial .30 cal vs .50 cal.
Somebody forgot that guns and ammo weights go up with the cube of the caliber.

Now Arsenal seems to have forgotten this. And/or they were fixed on the small wing = low drag.
Curtiss got caught with the P-53/P-60. Originally specified with eight .50s in a 275 sq ft wing (25.5m2) either to compete with the P-47 or army wishes? As the airframe grew heavier and the generation of wonder engines all failed, Curtiss tried to compensate by taking guns out. First down to 6 guns and finally to just 4 guns in a version with an R-2800 engine. They were offering four 20mm guns but the four .50s were to try to get the performance numbers onto the playing field.

The P-40 is interesting in that it went from 1939-40 standards of protection (none) to 1943 standards, also was upgraded in radio equipment (radio includes IFF) in addition changes in armament and in powerplant (minor). Unfortunately the US changed some of it's weight categories and protection (armor and BP glass) was transferred into furnishings and/or armament provisions. Likewise the misc equip under armament just got folded into the weight of the guns, the guns did not actually get 15lbs heavier each.
We in the west do not have detailed weight breakdowns of may non-US aircraft.
P-40 gained about 93lb in armor in the early models. BP glass is separate, Communications (radio, etc) went from 71lbs to over 130lbs in the P-40F and later, Fuel protection went to 80lbs on the P-40B vs the early P-40. Jumped another 160lbs in the P-40C and later but maybe they over did it? and/or the 3 tank set up in the P-40 had a lot of surface area compared to volume of fuel?
P-40C was over 500lbs heavier than a P-40 empty equipped (no ammo or fuel). Gained two .30 guns and the protection, still had early radios. That is about 2lbs per sq ft of wing loading even with the large P-40 wing (21.8m2)

If you want a decent 1942-43 fighter what do you change? Germans and Soviets were stuck with 109 and the Yak's and Lagg/LA, they can't retool in the middle of the war. They limited the armament even as they increased engine power/protection.