Advanced French Fighters vs 1942/1943 contemporaries (10 Viewers)

[OldGeezer]

I too was bought up on inFerial (now called American in computing) measurements but have been using metric since the tail end of the 50's when my school started teaching metric. It is so much easier and more logical than measuring in 128ths or 256ths and having multiple gallons and ounces and miles and so many other measurements that have the same names but different values.

Inches and feet and gallons and pounds got mankind into controlled flight, they won WW2, they took us to the moon and created modern computers and the Internet. Not bad for an "inferior" system.

 

[andy1967]

The question is how long could Germany fight a protracted war against Britain and France without running out of money or resources without plundering France, Greece,Russia Norway and Denmark to name a few. What would happen to German forces in occupied Norway and Denmark?Would they withdraw , be reinforced or defeated by Britain and France which would allow Iron Ore shipments from Sweden to German to be disrupted.Then you have Russia, without the invasion of Russia, would the Russians annex Romania to gain control of the Oil fields.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

It gets very hard to predict what happens after we change a major thing like whether France falls. It's very hard to imagine France managing to hold out though if their military was better organized they probably could have. But in anything like a realistic scenario I can only really imagine a few more months at the most. Unless you reorganized the entire French army.

 

[ThomasP]

Another aspect of 'what if France does not fall when it did historically'.

The French Mediterranean fleet would be available. Not an overall war winner, but many of the problems the British navy faced in the MTO could be minimized. On paper and in theory, the French navy could stand off the Italian navy all by itself. The early-war French fleet combined with the British fleet could (probably would) prevent the Italians & Germans from maintaining any sizable force in North Africa.

?

 

[ThomasP]

Addition to the above.

With France still in the fight, a significant number of airbases would be available in Tunisia - not just Malta. How much would this affect the supply routes?

Most of Sicily would be reachable from airbases in Tunisia (the far side of Sicily is only about 300 miles).

 

[Bretoal2]

With LeO 451 in rapid production (749 ordered, of which 222 were delivered and 54 got into combat units before armistice) their fast ground attack plane the Breguet 693 (224 ordered, 124 delivered, 79 lost in combat before armistice), along with US types (Boston and Maryland), the French had a pretty good bomber force coming online, and with their fighters (including Wildcat, Hawk 75, Tomahawk etc.) having longer range, they could conceivably wage an operational and strategic bombing campaign of their own.

The aircraft consistently overlooked in these lists is the Amiot 351/354.

Yet, it possessed notable qualities and merits—specifically, ease of handling and a design that allowed for rapid construction—areas in which it outperformed the LeO 451. Its offensive and defensive armament were nearly identical to those of its concurrent, as were its performances. In fact, by the spring of 1940, some officials within the French Armée de l'Air were considering shifting a significant number of orders from the LeO 451 to the Amiot.

Before this, the aircraft had greatly suffered from a lack of a stable, finalized design ; throughout 1939, various Air Force evaluation committees repeatedly altered the specifications, effectively bringing progress to a standstill.

Furthermore, Félix Amiot—a private industrialist—faced immense difficulties in re-equipping his facilities with the necessary surfaces and machine tools after having his assets seized under nationalization laws - later, Amiot designed and build his own machines, there are many patents on this subject.

By the spring of 1940, however, his Cherbourg plant had completed the setup of all tooling and jigs. As the German invasion began, Amiot bombers were on the verge of rolling off the assembly line at a rapidly accelerating rate—far exceeding the production levels seen up to that point. It was too late...

 

[yulzari]

Another aspect of 'what if France does not fall when it did historically'.

The French Mediterranean fleet would be available. Not an overall war winner, but many of the problems the British navy faced in the MTO could be minimized. On paper and in theory, the French navy could stand off the Italian navy all by itself. The early-war French fleet combined with the British fleet could (probably would) prevent the Italians & Germans from maintaining any sizable force in North Africa.

?

Indeed, and that was exactly what the Marine Nationale was intended to do had France not fallen. The removal of the French fleet from the Mediterranean was a major factor in Italy joining the Axis and the hazard of the Italians getting their hands on it was a major factor in Operation Catapault.

 

[Shortround6]

The question is how long could Germany fight a protracted war against Britain and France without running out of money or resources without plundering France, Greece,Russia Norway and Denmark to name a few.

Well, if Germany is stopped at roughly the May 21st line that does leave them with Denmark, Norway, Holland and Belgium to plunder. Perhaps not worth the effort expended?

The aircraft consistently overlooked in these lists is the Amiot 351/354.

By the spring of 1940, however, his Cherbourg plant had completed the setup of all tooling and jigs. As the German invasion began, Amiot bombers were on the verge of rolling off the assembly line at a rapidly accelerating rate—far exceeding the production levels seen up to that point. It was too late...

The Amiot 351 may have been a good plane. It is hard to say what it could have turned into. It's bombload was not great, 1200kg? bomb bay problem or just lack of power? Lack of power is easier to solve.
One source says that out of the 3 Amiot factories that existed, two were hit by German raids before the war stopped. Actual damage was???

Germans have a huge advantage in a strategic war against the French.
The Germans have the blind bombing system/s being set up.
The closer distances mean they are a bit more accurate.
French need lots of British help with electronics.
How much radar and radios are the French going to get for either day or night fighting?
French have some hard choices to make in the summer and fall of 1940.
Keep making existing stuff with minor improvements or gamble on switching production to better models.

 

[Elan Vital]

That certainly changes the assessment of the D.520 in my eye. Do you know if these changes were implemented in production aircraft?

I hadn't thought of the use of the wind tunnel in improving engine intakes and fixtures, that's a very interesting detail. Seems like it was a very promising use.

Some changes allegedly went on Vichy D520s to make up for speed loss due to wear or parts that couldn't be produced like in 1940, the use of the 12Y-49 engine was the most well-known and systematic change. However, while they made perfect sense in Vichy's situation, I'm not sure they would have been simply retrofitted in an undefeated France.

I rather suspect that they would be part of various packages introduced during production, for example during the switch to D523s with 12Y-51 engines or D524s with 12Z engines. Additionally, there may not have been many baseline 12Y-45 D520s left to upgrade by the time these changes would have been implemented (maybe late 1940). They may have been lost to attrition in the following months of 1940-1941.

We also have little or no idea of what the effects of what a partial invasion of France would be. Where would the front lines stabilize? How far from the front lines are the factories and how much would moving the production lines disrupt things? Plans were made for moving much of the H-S Factory in addition to setting up a 2nd factory but 2nd factories take months to set up and get into large scale production. Setting up a 2nd factory also needs to be, are you setting up shadow factory for an existing engine or for the "new" engine still under development that may need minor tooling changes?

There may be no BoB under this scenario but an Aug-Sept-Oct French Blitz could either take out a number of factories or force moves to remote areas of France.

View attachment 899371

I don't know how fully representative this map is but it looks superficially at least like France has some factories down in the West and Southwest, and some in Provence.

One other question that still stands out for me (and I hope someone here can answer) is are the French fighters going to get two speed or two stage superchargers in time. In 1940 the best French and Allied fighters can hold their own against Bf 109E and Bf 110 in a tactical an operational war. Against the Bf 109F (and later) and FW 190 this is going to become necessary.

France showed interest in British radar sets even before the war kicked off and started receiving sets slightly before the battle. It would take time to establish a system as good as in the British Isles, but it would happen. Understandably this means that the aerial battle of France would have less favourable kill ratios than in the historical BoB, with the caveat that at least some 200 German pilots (including aces like Mölders) would have been sent to Canada and would be permanently lost to the Luftwaffe. These less favourable conditions are partially compensated by the AdA adding themselves to British airpower and the British Isles being effectively undisturbed. If instead the Germans seek to strike both France and Britain (since they should hold Belgian and Dutch coasts), they will disperse their forces.

As of May/June 1940 the orders for French domestic fighters were 2205 D52X, 1000 VG 3X (including or excluding 400 Allison VG32s as firm orders?) and 400 Bloch 155s to which were added an order for 270 Bloch 155s on May 28th as the loss of the Méaulte factory making Potez 63.11s allowed G-R to produce more 14N engines instead of 14Ms. Another 250 Bloch 155s could be added depending on performance.

The Bloch were assembled at Chateauroux-Déols and Bordeaux-Mérignac, the VG 32s would be built at Clermont-Ferrand (factory online for December 1940), the Hispano VG3X at Sartrouville (first aircrafts in June 1940), the D520 at Toulouse, Tarbes-Ossun (coming online in Summer 1940, had received a first set of 50 fuselages) and a third line was to be prepared by the Chausson company with underground facilities in the Ariège region. Of these only the Sartrouville factory was particularly exposed (Parisian region).

Regarding engines, G-R types were built at Boulevard Kellerman in Paris (the latter was dismantled to be moved in June 1940 given German advance) with an associated forge shop and foundry in Gennevilliers, the shadow factories in Le Mans (assembly at Ponthierry, and one bombproof factory to be completed in August) which was being reset to produce 14Ns in July 1940, and the SNCM factory in Gennevilliers. Peugeot was also setting up 4 facilities near Bordeaux with an underground assembly base

For H-S types, current production was at Bois-Colombes and was being moved to an underground quarry on the outskirts of Paris, Fordair expected to come online in September/October 1940 (Bordeaux and Poissy, the latter being near Paris), the H-S underground factory at Jonzac (Bordeaux region), and another factory in Tarbes.

For accessories, the B-G company (spark plugs, magnetos, gyros, ignition harnesses) in Paris had a new plant near completion in the department of Gironde, Turbomeca (S-P superchargers) is presently in Billancourt in Paris but was rushing to Southern France. Aircraft weapons were generally not built in and North of Paris.

All of the factories not in Paris are to the South of the West so are not particularly vulnerable. For H-S the parisian facilities account for about 40% of the sustained production capacity to be obtained in 1941, unknown for G-R engines. However, the loss of raw material facilities in northern France reduced production by 60% in June 1940 so imports would have been necessary if France lost these facilities.

Regarding the actual frontline though, short of making an unrecognizable French Army which is much better at maneuver warfare, the main way to avoid mass encirclements and a quick defeat is to reinforce the Sedan-Monthermé sectors which were broken through OTL and/or have a mass of maneuver able to quickly counterattack in this area, so that the Germans are forced to fight a battle of attrition instead of being enable to reach the Channel (historians generally assess that this would be done by having the equivalent of the 7th Army in reserve in Champagne instead of going to Bréda, and getting a couple divisions from behind the Maginot Line).
The implication of this scenario is that the French may be able to stop the Germans and reshuffle forces over time without having to hurriedly retreat the entire Army Group 1. Optimistically the French then hold a line going from the Maginot Line to the Meuse or slighly behind it and then the Dyle in Belgium (no loss of French industry), more likely they would have to retreat back to the Escaut river in Belgium (French industries still largely safe). If they cannot block the Germans in place and have to trade space then they would likely hold a Somme-Aisne-Maginot Line where they would lose several northern raw material centers (Lille region), although they could save that region and still hold on the Somme-Aisne rivers as a repeat to WW1.

Somewhat related, a Merlin III, XII or 45 will be worth much more on a D.520 than on a Hurricane; just something to consider.

However, the French gave up on Merlin-powered D520s in November 1939 and testing of the D521 powered with this engine ceased in March 1940 as it was deemed too dangerous by its test pilot and the French focused on other projects rather than implementing the changes needed to make the aircraft work (they had not been informed of the fact the Merlin rotated inversely to the HS-12Y). They would have had to run another round of trials, while the Merlin would still be in demand for British aircrafts and possibly Amiot bombers first.