Advantages of sleeve valves for H-24 engines?

[J.A.W.]

Why don't you go & write your own book! Oh wait, ummm, nevermind...

(Seriously though, I have supervised students in the past, & I'd kindly advise as to which points be checked/revised.
& hey, even your book needed a better editing/proof-reading, as you well know.)

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Why don't you go & write your own book! Oh wait, ummm, nevermind...

(Seriously though, I have supervised students in the past, & I'd kindly advise as to which points be checked/revised.
& hey, even your book needed a better editing/proof-reading, as you well know.)

So thats a no, then? Happy to throw rocks but not to comtribute data ?

PS thanks for the marketing, I`m sure the more you complain about my book the more interested everyone else will get about what you`re moaning about.

 

[Bretoal2]

Yes, Raymond really ought to have revised that article by now, certainly as a 'thesis' it would not been passed by an informed supervisor,
based on a number of cogent points.

We are waiting for your writings and unpublished documents with great impatience.

 

[J.A.W.]

So thats a no, then? Happy to throw rocks but not to comtribute data ?

PS thanks for the marketing, I`m sure the more you complain about my book the more interested everyone else will get about what you`re moaning about.

Not rocks, cogent points/corrective criticism/scientific method, not emotive sentiment/defensiveness/whataboutism.

As stated, I could make list of corrections for Raymond, but its a wee bit late now, (except as an 'academic exercise' - ironically enough).

 

[rochie]

Why don't you go & write your own book! Oh wait, ummm, nevermind...

(Seriously though, I have supervised students in the past, & I'd kindly advise as to which points be checked/revised.
& hey, even your book needed a better editing/proof-reading, as you well know.)

lets tone this down, you have only just been allowed back on this forum !

 

[J.A.W.]

lets tone this down, you have only just been allowed back on this forum !

Very well. Sounds reasonable.

 

[Engineman]

Interestingly, Rod Banks wrote that even with the benefit of hindsight (and his intimate knowledge of the problems, far better than we can research), it is difficult to judge if the Sabre was worthwhile. Additionally, he states that the Sabre "was not all that efficient" and had a lower mechanical efficiency than either the Merlin or the Griffon, despite the Sabres greater piston area. Banks also quotes the Sabre at five times the cost of Merlin, and the Hercules at twice the cost of the Merlin, both expensive engines being sleeve valves.
Further comments by Banks are generally not supportive of the Sabre. However, he does state that when the Sabre had been made reliable enough, the Typhoon was a fast and powerful low altitude aircraft, of that moment.

Eng

 

[J.A.W.]

Interestingly, Rod Banks wrote that even with the benefit of hindsight (and his intimate knowledge of the problems, far better than we can research), it is difficult to judge if the Sabre was worthwhile. Additionally, he states that the Sabre "was not all that efficient" and had a lower mechanical efficiency than either the Merlin or the Griffon, despite the Sabres greater piston area. Banks also quotes the Sabre at five times the cost of Merlin, and the Hercules at twice the cost of the Merlin, both expensive engines being sleeve valves.
Further comments by Banks are generally not supportive of the Sabre. However, he does state that when the Sabre had been made reliable enough, the Typhoon was a fast and powerful low altitude aircraft, of that moment.

Eng

Banks was supportive of the Sabre, it was at his insistence that the morass of befuddled production management was swept away,
& replaced by a competent English-Electric cadre. Banks also stepped in & proved the efficacy of utilizing Bristol sleeve valve tech,
even to the extent of gaining priority for the Napier to snaffle the sought after, sophisticated US Sundstrand grinding machine,
(also heavily coveted by P & W for their revised R-2800 mill). I'd think the ' 5 times the price per hp' also factors in economy of scale.

One thing he did get wrong, was in the 'not all that efficient' view - as the test figures attest (BMEP/BSFC/oil-loss/lb-hp & etc)

For sure, one large group of 'stakeholders' needed no convincing how worthwhile the Sabre was, viz: the Londoners spared the
800 or so V1 cruise-missiles (the 'lion's share of fighter victories, by quite a margin) which the Tempest units successfully prevented
from crashing down on the long-suffering inhabitants of the 'Big City' - who'd be otherwise killed/injured/de-housed, even moreso.

 

[Engineman]

You are misrepresenting what Banks wrote for what YOU think.

Eng

 

[J.A.W.]

@ Engineman, per your X applied to my reply to your post, hey do a fact-check by all means, it will confirm what I wrote.

Edit: Putting an X on this post, rather than checking the evidence base, is a bit silly, yeah?
My reply stands on its merits as valid, much of the data is available here in this site, to verify it...

& naturally, an X, indicating 'disagree' is a 'carte blanche' invitation for a fact-based response.

 

[Engineman]

Don't bother, you are just argumentative and my post #127 was not for you, so please do not address me with any further posts.

Eng

 

[z42]

For sure, one large group of 'stakeholders' needed no convincing how worthwhile the Sabre was, viz: the Londoners spared the
800 or so V1 cruise-missiles (the 'lion's share of fighter victories, by quite a margin) which the Tempest units successfully prevented
from crashing down on the long-suffering inhabitants of the 'Big City' - who'd be otherwise killed/injured/de-housed, even moreso.

That seems to assume that hadn't the Tempest with the Sabre been available, they'd have just stood there with their hands in their pockets and done nothing.

For instance, RAF Mustangs on anti-V1 duty operated with 25 lbs boost (on 150 grade fuel) and were actually slightly faster than the Tempest V at the 2000-3000 ft altitude the V1's were coming in at. Not a huge difference in absolute terms, about 410 mph vs 405 mph for the Tempest, but considering the V1 flew at about 400 mph the relative speed difference was quite substantial.

P-51 Mustang Performance

Tempest V Performance

Tempest Performance Data, wartime flight trials and reports of Tempest aircraft. Tempest Performance Testing. Pilot Combat Reports.

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org

Or if all the effort that was spent on sleeve valves had been spent on jets instead, maybe they could have had non-trivial numbers of Meteors on anti-V1 duty?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

@ Engineman, per your X applied to my reply to your post, hey do a fact-check by all means, it will confirm what I wrote.

Edit: Putting an X on this post, rather than checking the evidence base, is a bit silly, yeah?
My reply stands on its merits as valid, much of the data is available here in this site,

@ Engineman, per your X applied to my reply to your post, hey do a fact-check by all means, it will confirm what I wrote.

Edit: Putting an X on this post, rather than checking the evidence base, is a bit silly, yeah?
My reply stands on its merits as valid, much of the data is available here in this site, to verify it...

& naturally, an X, indicating 'disagree' is a 'carte blanche' invitation for a fact-based response.

You haven't posted a single piece of archive evidence which supports anything you've said during this entire debate. You are argumentative unlikable and totally uninterested in learning anything, yet insult people like Engine man and Robert Raymond who know more on these topics than most people alive,

 

[J.A.W.]

That seems to assume that hadn't the Tempest with the Sabre been available, they'd have just stood there with their hands in their pockets and done nothing.

For instance, RAF Mustangs on anti-V1 duty operated with 25 lbs boost (on 150 grade fuel) and were actually slightly faster than the Tempest V at the 2000-3000 ft altitude the V1's were coming in at. Not a huge difference in absolute terms, about 410 mph vs 405 mph for the Tempest, but considering the V1 flied at about 400 mph the relative speed difference was quite substantial.

P-51 Mustang Performance

Tempest V Performance

Tempest Performance Data, wartime flight trials and reports of Tempest aircraft. Tempest Performance Testing. Pilot Combat Reports.

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org

Or if all the effort that was spent on sleeve valves had been spent on jets instead, maybe they could have had non-trivial numbers of Meteors on anti-V1 duty?

Incorrect assumption, ADGB were surprised that the massive attack on the 'Diver' infrastructure in France had not been more effective,
& there was a scramble to reorganise the defence, by all means at hand, from balloons through flak to fighters.

It just so happens that one of the merits of the Sabre, was not only power to push the Tempest through the thick air ('soup'),
at low levels - fast, but also its endurance at high power-settings, in order to run down the cruise-missiles, which themselves
gained speed as they burned off the fuel fraction of weight carried. The Mustang's 4 x .50" gun fit was puny* compared to the
4 x 20mm, & the Tempest had an early form of HUD 'head up display' where the gunsight graticule was projected directly on
the high optic quality front screen, minimising the 'mirage' effect of the missile's jet-efflux.

The time a Merlin could hack +25lb was short, & the Griffons running at that boost ruined their crankshaft bearings,
so that boost level was deemed untenable, until the engine was revised again, later.

According to one test pilot (who just happened to command the Tempest Wing in mid 1944) R. Beamont, the early Meteor was
practically useless, ( 616 Squadron got a 'bakers dozen' (13) victories for the Meteor), because it was so fuel-marginal, & don't
forget, the Meteor was being built by the same company which was churning out Typhoons, for invasion duties, too.

Edit: Adit *"Puny" was expressed with typical dry RAF understatement in their official report as "Light" - even by Spitfire standard.

 

[J.A.W.]

You haven't posted a single piece of archive evidence which supports anything you've said during this entire debate. You are argumentative unlikable and totally uninterested in learning anything, yet insult people like Engine man and Robert Raymond who know more on these topics than most people alive,

What was the catchphrase of the grizzed cop?

Ah yes, 'Just the facts ma`am' - & I've presented plenty in a fair spread of topics, already.

Kindly take note of the moderator's express wish & leave out any personal/petulant/abrasive/grandstanding comments, ta.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

What was the catchphrase of the grizzed cop?

Ah yes, 'Just the facts ma`am' - & I've presented plenty in a fair spread of topics, already.

Kindly take note of the moderator's express wish & leave out any personal/petulant/abrasive/grandstanding comments, ta.

That set of posting rules means you'll have to delete all your own posts though ?

 

[J.A.W.]

Ricardo converted a Rolls-Royce Kestrel to Diesel with a sleeve valve system ~1930. It was disappointing and broke a lot.

In fact, the Ricardo sleeve-valve CI Kestrel did run well enough to gain for Britain, the World Land-speed Record for diesel cars.

Eyston – Eldridge Speed of the Wind / Flying Spray

Speed of the Wind was a car built by George Eyston and Ernest Eldridge to set endurance records. The car was successful at Bonneville in the mid-1930s. Fitted with a diesel engine, it was renamed F…

oldmachinepress.com

 

[J.A.W.]

You haven't posted a single piece of archive evidence which supports anything you've said during this entire debate. You are argumentative unlikable and totally uninterested in learning anything, yet insult people like Engine man and Robert Raymond who know more on these topics than most people alive,

Refer to post #91, a couple of pages back. The period technical journal article is formed on Napier Works information.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Refer to post #91, a couple of pages back. The period technical journal article is formed on Napier Works information.

What, Flight Magazine ?

It was read by the Germans during the war, and was heavily censored and obviously very heavily edited to make sure it was always good propaganda.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

It just so happens that one of the merits of the Sabre, was not only power to push the Tempest through the thick air ('soup'),
at low levels - fast, but also its endurance at high power-settings, in order to run down the cruise-missiles, which themselves
gained speed as they burned off the fuel fraction of weight carried.

Also utter nonsense >

".... cannot be boosted any further without disastrous failure."