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Common sense enough...You would have problems if they released from the top first.
I'm starting to get punchy from being up a little late: To be clear, racks have shackles or shackles got racks?But it is still not what I was saying.
For a B-17 to have 20 bombs on board they would be held on 4 racks - possibly 6 each on the inner racks and 4 each on the outer racks.
Which would be mean they would all come out in six seconds and drape an area around 2200 feet long?So the time taken to drop all is not 20 times the interval between bombs. More like 6 times.
OKIn the analyses 'gross errors' were usually discounted.
And they called this precision bombing... lolHow an analysis was done was dependent upon the type of mission and many factors. In the example I gave above (H2X through cloud cover) any bombs that fell more than five miles from the target were ignored. This figure for bombs that were simply ignored is substantial. In the worse case scenario, bombing blind on H2X through 10/10 cloud, 41.5% of bombs fell more than five miles from the aiming point and were discounted.
So where it fell relative to the center of the ring was how they counted it?The Americans used 'Group Pattern ' analysis in which a single set of error measurements were calculated for the bombs dropped by an entire Group. The object was to establish how well the bombs were aimed. The Americans established a 'pattern center', defined as the centre of a circle with 1000' radius in which most of the bombs fell. It was the displacement of this point from the aiming point which was used to calculate the bombing errors.
So, the RAF factored each plane's bombing accuracy by itself?The Americans had earlier attempted to use the Mean Point of Impact (MPI) to assess bombing errors. This was a method useful in some instances, like for example fighter bomber attacks on specific targets, but proved unsatisfactory for pattern analysis. The problem was that a relative few (2 or 3 from a Group of 21) stray 'sticks' of bombs falling outside the pattern might drag the MPI to the periphery of the main fall or even outside it.
That was like 1941 right?It took some time for the British to realise that they simply couldn't navigate or bomb accurately by night
I know this might sound like a silly series of questions: At one point didn't they go from the combat box over the target area to a more amorphous formation to bomb; then go back into the box?With bomber formations 500yd across and even wider, a lot of bombs are going to be spread out.
And they called this precision bombing... lol
So where it fell relative to the center of the ring was how they counted it?
So, the RAF factored each plane's bombing accuracy by itself?
That was like 1941 right?
To be clear, racks have shackles or shackles got racks?
Which would be mean they would all come out in six seconds and drape an area around 2200 feet long?
General bombing offensives basically mean city busting?First it is important to define the difference between precision and area bombing. The problem is that the two are often (even usually) confused with a selective bombing offensive, in which a group of related target all associated with the same activity are engaged (Oil Plan, Transport Plan etc) and a more general bombing offensive.
Which is defined whether the aiming is at specific targets, or a zone where the targets are known to be?A selective offensive can in fact be pursued by either area or precision attack.
Operational factors would be navigational and bombardment accuracy, enemy defenses, and bomber escorts; Selective would be a desire to destroy specific industry and targets where the other is to bomb 'em and burn 'em 'till they quit."The choice between area and precision attack is primarily governed by operational factors; the choice between a selective and a general bombing offensive is a question of strategy."
And that didn't work because of a lack of effective deep-penetration escort, stiffening enemy air-defenses, and accuracy that was sub-par...The USAAF pursued a selective bombing campaign and initially attempted to do this with precision raids.
This was from September 1939 to some point in 1940? If I recall, they chose a selective bombing campaign because of the size of the bombing force, the PM's personal opinions, and FDR's requests to avoid attacks on civilians.The RAF also set out intending to carry out a selective campaign, despite the Trenchardist influence on its doctrine.
Actually by February 1941, there was a memorandum circulated that specifically stated that attacks on cities were aimed at demoralization by causing mass destruction and fear of death to the population down below.The Western Air Plans certainly represent a selective campaign and the idea was that this be carried out by precision bombing. The difference between the two forces is that as the British were forced to give up any idea of precise bombing their strategy also shifted towards a more general bombing offensive which reached a zenith in Harris' area bombing campaign.
Yeah, he was remarkably stubborn.Harris had to be cajoled into allowing his force to support the Americans in their selective campaign in the last two years of the war. He famously referred to the target systems of the various selective plans as 'panaceas'.
That I seem to getNot quite. Individual bomb strikes were not important, except to establish the centre of the pattern.
UnderstoodIt was the distance of the centre of the Group pattern from the aiming point which was used to assess how accurately a Group had bombed.
Why did we not do this?Aircraft produced a bombing photograph which gave the position of the aircraft when it released its load, from which the bomb fall could be calculated. The images from many aircraft were combined to give a diagram of what had been hit.
It was not just the photograph that was used. EVERY aircraft on the raid produced a 'Sortie Report' the data from which was passed from Squadron to Group and then to Bomber Command's Operational Research Section (ORS). In the limited space here I will note that the key data were, target attacked, bombs dropped, time, height, heading and airspeed at bomb release, what was in the bomb sight and the bomb aimer's and pilot's report. Based on this vast amount of data the ORS produced a time histogram of the raid, this sheet was known because of its size as the 'table cloth'.
Chemnitz right?Bomber Command could and did completely miss target cities right up to the end of the war
What yielded this increased accuracy?In mid 1942 between 20% and 30% of bombs fell within three miles of the aiming point, by late 1944 this figure was hovering around 90% and Bomber Command often bombed more accurately by night than the 8th Air Force by day.
So the walls are the racks...There are 4 racks in a B-17. The two main ones are the in the centre, while two others are at the outside.
So the walls are the racks...
And each station has a shackle?Each bomb is hoisted on a rack and held in place with a shackle.
General bombing offensives basically mean city busting?
Which is defined whether the aiming is at specific targets, or a zone where the targets are known to be?
Operational factors would be navigational and bombardment accuracy, enemy defenses, and bomber escorts; Selective would be a desire to destroy specific industry and targets where the other is to bomb 'em and burn 'em 'till they quit.
And that didn't work because of a lack of effective deep-penetration escort, stiffening enemy air-defenses, and accuracy that was sub-par...
This was from September 1939 to some point in 1940? If I recall, they chose a selective bombing campaign because of the size of the bombing force, the PM's personal opinions, and FDR's requests to avoid attacks on civilians.
Starting in May, it seem Churchill was more willing to adopt attacks on population centers but wanted to make sure the public was behind it before he'd do it. By July plans for incendiary raids were drawn up, but it wasn't until the Coventry raids that political unacceptable became political inevitable.
Actually by February 1941, there was a memorandum circulated that specifically stated that attacks on cities were aimed at demoralization by causing mass destruction and fear of death to the population down below..
What yielded this increased accuracy?
The primary bombing target
2. There is, I think, general agreement that the Battle of the Atlantic must remain our chief preoccupation: after that our effort should be employed against the most profitable targets in Germany. The possibilities are:
(a) Morale
(b)Oil
(c) Transportation
OkNo, the racks are the racks. The "wall" is round.
So the stations are attached to the racks, and a shackle is where bomb meets station?Only the stations that they are using would have shackles.
They also redesigned the bomb-bay correct?For the Silverplate B-29s the normal racks were removed and a new type of rack installed.
Okay, I understandNo. A selective campaign targets what we would now call target systems, oil, ball bearings, transport etc.
Straight forward enoughA general bombing offensive might target far more nebulous objectives like enemy morale.
Actually there seemed to be primary desire to bomb the population, with industrial objectives being a bonus in such cases, unless specifically added.In the case of the British effort it was an offensive to reduce German war production by any means possible. It degenerated into city busting, Harris is on the record stating that he was more interested in the acreage destroyed than factories flattened.
We both did...The method employed for a selective campaign might be precision or area bombing. The operational factors you identify determine which is achievable and whether there really is a choice. If you cannot reliably find or hit a relatively small target accurately (precision bombing)then you drop a lot of bombs in the area of that target in the expectation of hitting it (area bombing). The British (and I'm sure the American) did a lot of statistical analysis to work out how many sorties and what weight of bombs were required to guarantee the destruction of various targets.
There was a book called "Almost a Boffin" in which an officer described USSR penetration of the RAE; additionally Richard Overy described some errors with filming the bomb-drop.The British chose a selective bombing campaign, as drawn up in the Western Air Plans because they thought it was the best application of the available air power. The re-think came when they realised that most crews couldn't find their targets, let alone hit them.
Actually, in at least one case they wanted to set a city on fire; another they wanted to deliberately drop bombs sloppy to pound the population.The idea of a more general campaign was not new. For example, in WW1 the British attempted to bomb German or German occupied railway stations, but were not to bothered if the bombs missed the target and caused panic and damage elsewhere in the city/town. It was not considered a waste of effort.
If I recall, there was a general fear that any declaration of war would be met with an annihilating attack with bombs, incendiaries, and poison gas. They seemed to actually view poison gas as the biggest threat. Fortunately the Germans and UK never used them.You have to understand the bomber fleets of the major pre-WW2 powers as a deterrent.
The RAF made such a decision because their bomber fleets weren't big enough, as well as Chamberlain viewing it as a war-crime. The Luftwaffe seemed to attack air-fields first, but soon was hammering the daylights out of Warsaw from what I remember.Everybody started with the intention of attacking purely military targets
Yes but when the circumstances "work out" political impossible becomes inevitable. Modern day most say it as "never waste a good crisis", but the principle is the same. Churchill seemed interested in bombing cities by May, 1940 and wanted to gauge the public reaction; by July, Abigail Rachael was starting to be drawn up.It wasn't long before this moral position started to slip on all sides and the RAF in particular had always had a strong influence from the Douhet/Mitchell/Trenchard line of doctrine. The RAF could not decide bombing policy in isolation, Britain is and was a democracy, not a military dictatorship.
CorrectThe gloves could only come off once sanctioned by the British government. By late 1940, much earlier than most appreciate, Bomber Command was pursuing its selective campaign by area bombing methods. On 30th October 1940, before Coventry was attacked, Sholto Douglas was writing to Peirse regarding attacking German towns and concluding
"The objectives considered most suitable for these concentrated attacks [on towns] are the sources of power, such as electricity generating stations and gas plants, and centres of communications; but where primary targets such as the oil and aircraft industry objectives are suitably placed in the centres of the towns or populated districts, they also might be selected."
One glove was already off.
Yup, but the plan was drawn up in July of that year... around the time the Battle of Britain started.Coventry was bombed on 14th November 1940 and Mannheim was the British city chosen for reprisal for this attack, and also for the heavy raids on Southampton. The raid took place on the night of 16/17 December under the code name Operation Abigail Rachel.
I didn't know a special authorization was required, I do know the media was asked to be silent on it.Bomber Command was given a special authorisation by the War Cabinet to carry out a 'general attack on the centre of a German city', and it was Bomber Command that chose Mannheim. 134 aircraft were sent to Mannheim (reduced fron the intended 200 )and did bomb the city, most bombs falling in residential areas, killing 34 people and injuring another 81. The special authorisation was precisely because, at this time, the British were still prosecuting a selective campaign.
I'd almost swear I read a document dated February 23, 1941...The debate about morale attacks did not really gather pace until May/June 1941 when Trenchard himself produced a memorandum advocating German morale as Bomber Command's primary target.
Was there any point at which the RAF risked being truly dismembered?On 2nd 1941 June Sir John Gill, Chief of the Imperial Staff, commented on the memorandum.
"1. Lord Trenchard makes two points
(a)That our primary bombing target should be German morale
(b) That the building up of a strong bomber force should be given the highest priority.
The primary bombing target
2. There is, I think, general agreement that the Battle of the Atlantic must remain our chief preoccupation: after that our effort should be employed against the most profitable targets in Germany. The possibilities are:
(a) Morale
(b)Oil
(c) Transportation
That sounds correctThe debate continued for months, and it wasn't until 14th February 1942 (not 1941) that AVM Bottomley (Deputy Chief of the Air Staff) wrote to AM Baldwin (Acting AOC-in-C Bomber Command, pending Harris' arrival) instructing him that
"...it has been decided that the primary objective of your operations should now be focussed on the morale of the enemy civil population and in particular of the industrial workers."
CorrectJust one sentence in a directive of several hundred words, but now the gloves were really off.
When you say "broadcast winds", do you mean get wind-data while in flight so you're up to date?I missed this one
Bomber Command's accuracy increased with improvements in operational efficiency.
There were many factors. Better training, better tactics, better and improved technology. This encompasses everything from 'broadcast winds' to Gee and H2S to the establishment of a path finder force and the complicated ballet of marking, backing up and main force bombing, all overseen by a master bomber, that typified a major raid in 1944/45.
That problem affected everybody eh?Bomber Command almost overcame the problem of seeing in the dark, but like its American 8th AF ally, never overcame the vagaries of European weather.