- Thread starter
- #21
aircrafts in "push/pull" configuration
- Thread starter carson1934
- Start date
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Marcogrifo
Airman 1st Class
Cessna 337 Skymaster
Rutan 74 Defiant
Rutan 74 Defiant
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verner
Airman 1st Class
Sorry, got it now.
AMCKen
Senior Airman
I saw that on your first list and don't remember hearing of it before. Thought others might be in the same situation and so I sent some links for the ejimicashun of all. : )
AMCKen
Senior Airman
The B-36 MIGHT be a push/pull if you consider the R-4360 are pushing and the jets are pulling. : )
- Thread starter
- #26
carson1934
Senior Airman
Cessna 337 Skymaster
Rutan 74 Defiant
Thanks very much Marcogrifo for the splendid photos!
I already have the Rutan 74 Defiant which will be reflected on my next list.
Concerning the Cessna 337 I have a query: I already have exactly the same photo that you are sending through except that it is called Cessna 0-2 Skymaster.
Is it just possible that the Cessna 337 is the civilian version and the Cessna 0-2 the military version?
(Both A/C's look alike, well on close scrutiny there are some slight differences)
Cheers
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #27
carson1934
Senior Airman
You have a point there AMCKen but I think we are entering into a new (and sofar probably unexplored) domain....
carson1934
P.S. As soon as the contrarotating new list is ready (I should be able to complete it by some time next week if nothing happens) I will work on the push/pull list which is getting nice and thick.
Afterwards I think I'll start working on choppers with coaxial rotors.
I only hope I won't be chucked out of this forum for use and abuse of space!
Cheers my friend
carson1934
But by their nature Jets push, not pull, unless you think the plane is being sucked along
Speaking of which, is the choice limited to prop power only as the US Ryan Fireball was a rtrue push pull fighter with a prop on the nose and a jet in the tail? As was the Curtiss XF15C pictured below it
Speaking of which, is the choice limited to prop power only as the US Ryan Fireball was a rtrue push pull fighter with a prop on the nose and a jet in the tail? As was the Curtiss XF15C pictured below it
AMCKen
Senior Airman
But by their nature Jets push, not pull, unless you think the plane is being sucked along
Perhaps it might matter if the jets are ahead of the CG or behind, or pulling on the wing or pushing it - ha ha.
The XB-51 might have 2 jets pulling and 1 jet pushing.
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- Thread starter
- #30
carson1934
Senior Airman
But by their nature Jets push, not pull, unless you think the plane is being sucked along
Speaking of which, is the choice limited to prop power only as the US Ryan Fireball was a rtrue push pull fighter with a prop on the nose and a jet in the tail? As was the Curtiss XF15C pictured below it
Hi Waynos,
thanks for the Curtiss XF15C pic but I think I'm going to limit my list to push/pull prop power only....
It's nice though to realize that so many people follow on your own initiative!
carson1934
- Thread starter
- #32
carson1934
Senior Airman
Hi Carson, I found this today completely by accident and immediately thought you would like it. Can't help with a translation though, why do we not do our Observers books in the UK anymore
Hi Waynos,
being totally engrossed in the contraprops list, I was obliged to disregard to some extent my push/pull thread.
I was aware of the Schweizer and thank you for bringing it to my attention (do not worry about the text, I have little problem in reading german).
Over the week end I will finish my contrapropos and then I'll move on to push/pull
Cheers
carson1934
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
There were french ones too
Liore-Olivier LeO 203 / 204 /206 - night bomber
Farman F.220-224 - bomber
and Italian...
Caproni Ca.90
File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-09373, Mailand, Italienisches Grossflugzeug.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
and Caproni Ca.87
and other German ones:
Zeppelin-Lindau (Dornier) Rs-III (jpg image) free file download at fliiby.com
and Zeppelin -Staaken RXIV
Dornier N, Do P
Liore-Olivier LeO 203 / 204 /206 - night bomber
Farman F.220-224 - bomber
and Italian...
Caproni Ca.90
File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-09373, Mailand, Italienisches Grossflugzeug.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
and Caproni Ca.87
and other German ones:
Zeppelin-Lindau (Dornier) Rs-III (jpg image) free file download at fliiby.com
and Zeppelin -Staaken RXIV
Dornier N, Do P
- Thread starter
- #34
carson1934
Senior Airman
Hello Tzaw!,There were french ones too
Liore-Olivier LeO 203 / 204 /206 - night bomber
Farman F.220-224 - bomber
and Italian...
Caproni Ca.90
File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-09373, Mailand, Italienisches Grossflugzeug.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
and Caproni Ca.87
and other German ones:
Zeppelin-Lindau (Dornier) Rs-III (jpg image) free file download at fliiby.com
and Zeppelin -Staaken RXIV
Dornier N, Do P
I really appreciate your interest for my thread however the aircrafts you are mentioning are of little or no use to me.
I am quoting herebelow copy of my post #13 which I sent Graeme a few days ago:
What I'm aiming at is to prepare a listing as complete as possible of aircrafts in push/pull configuration"
(i.e: having both a push and a pull prop in the fuselage, like for instance the Do-335 or the Fokker D/XXIII).
This means excluding all other aircrafts with engine nacelles housing both a push and a pull prop, like for instance the Do-X, many french aircrafts inbetween wars, etc.
I hope I've made my object clear.
So as you can see there are restrictions to the models I require...
Thanks again,
carson1934
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
OK. these all Do and SM led into error me
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
AMCKen
Senior Airman
Looks similar to the Fokker D.XXIII
Tzaw1
Airman 1st Class
Yes, but was very small.
2×Renault 220 HP
Wingspan: 7,3 m
Length: 7,1 m
Wing area: 9,0 sqm
Empty weight: 750 kg
Take-off weight: 1180 kg
Max. speed at SL: 485 km/h
Expected max. speed: 688 km/h. Really, with half hidden undercarriage: 520-560 km/h
- Thread starter
- #40
carson1934
Senior Airman
Enclosed you will find a listing which I trust will prove to be complete of aircrafts in push-pull configuration.
I apologize for the delay incurred but also this hindrance was in the end beneficial because I was able to dig out some more models disregarded in my first provisional list.
Naturally suggestions and addenda are more than welcome.
carson1934
Please add to the list:
- Stastik "Dreadnought N.I" an aircraft in push/pull configuration built in Austria in 1914 at the ourbreak of WWI.Full information available on the net as per following:
Aviation was in its infancy when the Great War began in August 1914. Still, many historians point towards the 'War to End All Wars' as the single, most important event in the transformation of the aircraft from a novelty to a much sough out commodity. No one will look at aviation the same way after 1914. That's because the antagonist on this cataclysmic period utilized the airplane as a pure tool of war, rather than for communication or reconnaissance duties as it was customary during the first years of the twentieth century.
By the outbreak of hostilities, all combatants had an air force of some sort. The Germans had the biggest force with about 250 aircraft on inventory. The French, although outnumbered 3 to 2 in airplanes by the Germans, had a much greater understanding of aviation tactics. A base that would serve them well as its country became the main battlefront throughout the four year struggle. Farther behind the Germans and French were the British. The Royal Flying Corps, created in 1912; two years after France had done the same, could only field 60 airframes by July 1914. For the first two years of the war, Great Britain depended heavily on French engines and airframes. However, with its much larger industrial base, the island nation quickly caught and surpassed, both the Germans and French in aircraft output. On the other side of Europe, Russia was in possession of more planes than the British and French combined. They also had a better command structure than the French. But the confusing variety of types made maintenance of their aircraft difficult. Meanwhile, the chief culprit of instigating the war, Austria-Hungary, had only a tiny force by comparison.
In the later part of the nineteen century, in the vast territory controlled by the dual monarchy of Austria-Hungry, many aviation pioneers started developing and testing indigenous flying platforms. In the Czechoslovakia part of the empire, some aircraft inventors like Jan Kaspar began gaining a reputation for excellence in designs and development. Many aspiring pioneers became fixated with Kaspar's achievements. One of those people who felt in love with Kaspar's blue prints was Jan Stastik. The life of this remarkable, yet, less know aviation trailblazer is one of the most mysterious ones. The holes and hiatuses in his curriculum vitae are one of history's greatest travesties.
The bits and pieces of what is known are tantalizing. What is certainly accepted is that his public life started in the spring of 1911, when he applied as a student pilot in Kaspar's flying school at Pardubitze. After this period, little information is available, but it is safe to assume that Stastik was fulltime alum at the Technical University in Prague. By 1912, he introduced to the public his first aircraft model mockup in front of a jam packed crowd at the Prague Car Exhibition. He called the biplane on display at the exhibition that day Bomber Project Number One or Dreadnought No.1. According to the October 30th, 1914 issue of Flight, a prestigious British aviation magazine, Stastik's biplane bomber mockup has several similarities in design with that of Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky's famous Ilya Moroumetz heavy bomber, prompting many to conclude this was a copycat. Little do they know that the entrepreneur has secretly commenced work on his dream plane almost two years before the great Russian inventor.
In 1913, the Stastik began full work on his concept. The hard part of transforming a design mockup to a full size aircraft was a daunting task. One that required time and money. Time he had but money was in short supply. It was at that time that he turned to fellow countrymen Horak and Vonka to sponsor the project. The banking duo, famous for establishing several financing regulations in Imperial Austria, gave Stastik the important amount of 130,000 koruny (crowns). With money in tow, a year later, Stastik was able to present its semi-completed aircraft to an impressed gathering at the Prague Car Exhibition. In May, with the initial funds dwindling, he managed to finish the installation of the wing fittings and power plant. The final pieces needed before the aircraft could take to the air. By early June, and with his beloved bomber completed, Stastik began to plan for the initial flight test phase. At the time of his completion, Dreadnought No.1 was the Danube Monarchy's first operational-capable bomber.
The Dreadnought was a remarkable flying machine for its time. It was a three strutted biplane design, built from wood coverings and fiber. It was powered by two Gnome rotary engines capable of generating up to 100 horse power per unit. The power plants were placed at the front and rear sections of the fuselage. Each of them drove a two-bladed airscrew, rotating in opposite directions. Originally, the front faced Gnome engine got a cover hood. But it was soon removed due to problems associated with the cooling of the motor. The rear engine was never housed. The upper wing structure of the airplane was fitted with two sets of ailerons for additional control and had a span of 18 meters. The lower wing area was shorter by a couple of meters.
The tailplane was assembled in two frames meeting at the ruder post that carried one rudder and one elevator which was built in a T-configuration. Below the tailplane sat a tailskid. The main undercarriage was completed with another carriage that was mounted under the cockpit and used two metal wheels without rubber tires. These metal wheels had S-shaped spokes that served as additional suspension for the airplane. On the air frame, fitted in a compact cabin, sat the two man crew. Behind the pilot and co-pilot, was an intriguing apparatus for mounting the bomb load. The mechanism looked like a revolver drum. A remarkable close looking system was used by the United State's B-1A Lancer bomber for the deployment of cruise missiles in the early 1980s. The handling of the system was performed by lever controls and a special indicator that noticed the number of bombs attached to the barrel.
Next to the bomb-barrel were the fuel tanks. The empty weight of this twin-engine plane was 750kg. It soared to 1,200kg when fully fitted. Stastik planned to enhance that capacity two-fold, to around 2,000kg. Top operational speed for the bomber was estimated at 150 to 160 kmh, with a maximum flight endurance time of nearly six hours. By the middle of the summer of 1914, the massive Dreadnought began its flight test phase at Pardubitze. A year and a half later, the biplane finally joined the K.U.K. Fligerarsenal, the technical test center for the fledgling Luftschifferabteilung, the forerunner of the K.U.K Luftfahrtruppen (Austro-Hungarian air force), at Fischamend, downriver from the imperial capital of Vienna. From there, the aircraft will never emerge.
During the initial test flight, the aircraft began to gather speed for the takeoff before the front carriage broke, propelling the plane to a somersault crash. As the pilot emerged from the crash site, he managed to see what remained of the bomber catching fire. The end came quickly as ground crews were ill prepared to extinguish the fire. After the debris was removed, Stastik was contacted to do a follow-up project. But this never made it out of the discussion table. In an unfortunate side bar, the end of Dreadnought No.1 also signaled the end of Stastik's aviation career, as he and his remarkable plane, faded away in the fog of history.
No longer an Island: Britain and the Wright Brothers, 1902-109, Stanford Press University, 1984
The R.F.C. in the War, Flight Magazine No.6, 1914
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War I, Random House, 2001
I apologize for the delay incurred but also this hindrance was in the end beneficial because I was able to dig out some more models disregarded in my first provisional list.
Naturally suggestions and addenda are more than welcome.
carson1934
Please add to the list:
- Stastik "Dreadnought N.I" an aircraft in push/pull configuration built in Austria in 1914 at the ourbreak of WWI.Full information available on the net as per following:
Aviation was in its infancy when the Great War began in August 1914. Still, many historians point towards the 'War to End All Wars' as the single, most important event in the transformation of the aircraft from a novelty to a much sough out commodity. No one will look at aviation the same way after 1914. That's because the antagonist on this cataclysmic period utilized the airplane as a pure tool of war, rather than for communication or reconnaissance duties as it was customary during the first years of the twentieth century.
By the outbreak of hostilities, all combatants had an air force of some sort. The Germans had the biggest force with about 250 aircraft on inventory. The French, although outnumbered 3 to 2 in airplanes by the Germans, had a much greater understanding of aviation tactics. A base that would serve them well as its country became the main battlefront throughout the four year struggle. Farther behind the Germans and French were the British. The Royal Flying Corps, created in 1912; two years after France had done the same, could only field 60 airframes by July 1914. For the first two years of the war, Great Britain depended heavily on French engines and airframes. However, with its much larger industrial base, the island nation quickly caught and surpassed, both the Germans and French in aircraft output. On the other side of Europe, Russia was in possession of more planes than the British and French combined. They also had a better command structure than the French. But the confusing variety of types made maintenance of their aircraft difficult. Meanwhile, the chief culprit of instigating the war, Austria-Hungary, had only a tiny force by comparison.
In the later part of the nineteen century, in the vast territory controlled by the dual monarchy of Austria-Hungry, many aviation pioneers started developing and testing indigenous flying platforms. In the Czechoslovakia part of the empire, some aircraft inventors like Jan Kaspar began gaining a reputation for excellence in designs and development. Many aspiring pioneers became fixated with Kaspar's achievements. One of those people who felt in love with Kaspar's blue prints was Jan Stastik. The life of this remarkable, yet, less know aviation trailblazer is one of the most mysterious ones. The holes and hiatuses in his curriculum vitae are one of history's greatest travesties.
The bits and pieces of what is known are tantalizing. What is certainly accepted is that his public life started in the spring of 1911, when he applied as a student pilot in Kaspar's flying school at Pardubitze. After this period, little information is available, but it is safe to assume that Stastik was fulltime alum at the Technical University in Prague. By 1912, he introduced to the public his first aircraft model mockup in front of a jam packed crowd at the Prague Car Exhibition. He called the biplane on display at the exhibition that day Bomber Project Number One or Dreadnought No.1. According to the October 30th, 1914 issue of Flight, a prestigious British aviation magazine, Stastik's biplane bomber mockup has several similarities in design with that of Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky's famous Ilya Moroumetz heavy bomber, prompting many to conclude this was a copycat. Little do they know that the entrepreneur has secretly commenced work on his dream plane almost two years before the great Russian inventor.
In 1913, the Stastik began full work on his concept. The hard part of transforming a design mockup to a full size aircraft was a daunting task. One that required time and money. Time he had but money was in short supply. It was at that time that he turned to fellow countrymen Horak and Vonka to sponsor the project. The banking duo, famous for establishing several financing regulations in Imperial Austria, gave Stastik the important amount of 130,000 koruny (crowns). With money in tow, a year later, Stastik was able to present its semi-completed aircraft to an impressed gathering at the Prague Car Exhibition. In May, with the initial funds dwindling, he managed to finish the installation of the wing fittings and power plant. The final pieces needed before the aircraft could take to the air. By early June, and with his beloved bomber completed, Stastik began to plan for the initial flight test phase. At the time of his completion, Dreadnought No.1 was the Danube Monarchy's first operational-capable bomber.
The Dreadnought was a remarkable flying machine for its time. It was a three strutted biplane design, built from wood coverings and fiber. It was powered by two Gnome rotary engines capable of generating up to 100 horse power per unit. The power plants were placed at the front and rear sections of the fuselage. Each of them drove a two-bladed airscrew, rotating in opposite directions. Originally, the front faced Gnome engine got a cover hood. But it was soon removed due to problems associated with the cooling of the motor. The rear engine was never housed. The upper wing structure of the airplane was fitted with two sets of ailerons for additional control and had a span of 18 meters. The lower wing area was shorter by a couple of meters.
The tailplane was assembled in two frames meeting at the ruder post that carried one rudder and one elevator which was built in a T-configuration. Below the tailplane sat a tailskid. The main undercarriage was completed with another carriage that was mounted under the cockpit and used two metal wheels without rubber tires. These metal wheels had S-shaped spokes that served as additional suspension for the airplane. On the air frame, fitted in a compact cabin, sat the two man crew. Behind the pilot and co-pilot, was an intriguing apparatus for mounting the bomb load. The mechanism looked like a revolver drum. A remarkable close looking system was used by the United State's B-1A Lancer bomber for the deployment of cruise missiles in the early 1980s. The handling of the system was performed by lever controls and a special indicator that noticed the number of bombs attached to the barrel.
Next to the bomb-barrel were the fuel tanks. The empty weight of this twin-engine plane was 750kg. It soared to 1,200kg when fully fitted. Stastik planned to enhance that capacity two-fold, to around 2,000kg. Top operational speed for the bomber was estimated at 150 to 160 kmh, with a maximum flight endurance time of nearly six hours. By the middle of the summer of 1914, the massive Dreadnought began its flight test phase at Pardubitze. A year and a half later, the biplane finally joined the K.U.K. Fligerarsenal, the technical test center for the fledgling Luftschifferabteilung, the forerunner of the K.U.K Luftfahrtruppen (Austro-Hungarian air force), at Fischamend, downriver from the imperial capital of Vienna. From there, the aircraft will never emerge.
During the initial test flight, the aircraft began to gather speed for the takeoff before the front carriage broke, propelling the plane to a somersault crash. As the pilot emerged from the crash site, he managed to see what remained of the bomber catching fire. The end came quickly as ground crews were ill prepared to extinguish the fire. After the debris was removed, Stastik was contacted to do a follow-up project. But this never made it out of the discussion table. In an unfortunate side bar, the end of Dreadnought No.1 also signaled the end of Stastik's aviation career, as he and his remarkable plane, faded away in the fog of history.
No longer an Island: Britain and the Wright Brothers, 1902-109, Stanford Press University, 1984
The R.F.C. in the War, Flight Magazine No.6, 1914
Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War I, Random House, 2001
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