Ammunition Link and Complete Round Weights

[Ivan1GFP]

Thanks Krieghund,

A friend of mine emailed the tables to me way back. That is kind of what started THIS thread. Note that the weights in that table are VERY wrong. They only count the PROJECTILE Weight. The question is how much weight is removed from the aircraft with the firing of one round of ammunition which is why I am looking for Round + Link weights.

- Ivan.

 

[Kocur]

Found in US Army manual TM 9-2200 from October 1943:
LINK, METALLIC BELT, CAL. .30, M1 - 67.2 grains (0.946 lb per 100)
LINK, METALLIC BELT, CAL .50, M2 - (Average) 267 grains (3 .8 lb per 100 links)
LINK, DISINTEGRATING BELT, 20-M1, M3 - Approx. 2.5 oz.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Thanks Kocur,

I pretty much have numbers already for US Aircraft guns from "America's Hundred Thousand".

I have a lot of Japanese gun data from Shinpachi, but am still short of information on the Japanese Ho-103 12.7 mm MG and also don't have definitive data on the Ho-5 20 mm cannon.

For the German guns, I don't have information on the 7.92 mm MG 17 but have it for most of the other common guns.

The British only have the .303 Browning and their 20 mm Hispano which I found data for in a Hurricane II Manual.

I don't have ANY information on the Russian stuff. I figure I am looking for their ShKAS 7.62 mm, ShVAK 20 mm, B-20 20 mm, and their 23 mm gun for the IL-2.

Thanks.
- Ivan.

 

[Zipper730]

Okay, the issue here is the following

• Weight of the bullet/shell and casing: The goal is to determine weight on the aircraft
• Weight of the belt-links: That also plays a role in the weight.
• Type of round involved: API, API-T, Ball, etc...

So far what I got from the PDF is the following and I have some reason to be suspicious of some figures...

I. Allies

Nation: France

Type: Darne
Caliber: 7.5 x 54mm
Bullet: 9.6g
Bullet & Link: 1.209 oz

Type: MAC 1934
Caliber: 7.5 x 54mm
Bullet: 10.0g
Bullet & Link: 1.070 oz

Type: HS.9 & 404
Caliber: 20 x 110RB (no idea what RB is)
Shell: 129g
Shell & Link: 13.787 oz

Nation: PZ (Poland?)

Type: Vickers E & F; PWU w.33 & 37
Caliber: 7.9 x 57?
Mass: 10.0 g
Bullet & Link: 1.207 oz

Nation: USSR

Type: ShKAS
Caliber: 7.62 x 54R
Bullet: 11.9g
Bullet & Link: 1.273 oz

Type: UBK
Caliber: 12.7 x 108mm
Bullet: 48g
Bullet & Link: 5.130 oz

Type: B-20 & ShVAK
Caliber: 20 x 99R
Shell: 96g
Shell & Link: 10.260 oz

Type: NS-23
Caliber: 23 x 115
Shell: 200g
Shell & Link: 21.377 oz

Type: VYa
Caliber: 23 x 152B
Shell: 200g
Shell & Link: 21.377 oz

Type: NS-37
Caliber: 37 x 195
Shell: 735g
Shell & Link: 76.647 oz

Type: NS-45
Caliber: 45 x 182
Shell: 1065g
Shell & Link: 113.828 oz

Nation: UK

Type: Browning .303
Caliber: 77 x 56R (what's R?)
Bullet: 11.3g
Bullet & Link: 1.209 oz

Type: Hispano Mk. II & V.
Caliber: 20 x 110mm
Shell: 130g
Shell & Link: 13.896

Nation: USA

Type: Browning .30 M2
Caliber: 7.62 x 63mm
Bullet: 9.73 g
Bullet & Link: 1.039 oz

Type: Browning .50 M2
Caliber: 12.7 x 99mm
Bullet: 48.5g
Bullet & Link: 5.184 oz

Type: Hispano Mk.1
Caliber: 20 x 110mm
Shell: 130g
Shell & Link: 13.896 oz

Type: Browning M4
Caliber: 37 x 145mm
Shell: 608g
Shell & Link: 64.984 oz (I'm not sure about this because last I checked it didn't use a belt...)

II. Axis

Nation: Germany

Type: MG 17 & MG 81
Caliber: 7.9 x 57mm
Bullet: 10.0g
Bullet & Link: 1.070 oz

Type: MG 131
Caliber: 13 x 64B
Bullet: 34.6g
Bullet & Link: 3.697 oz

Type: MG 151
Caliber: 15 x 96
Shell: 57g
Shell & Link: 6.093 oz

Type: MG FF
Caliber: 20 x 80RB
Shell: 134g (MG FF), 92g (MG FF/M), 115g (MG FF/M)...
Shell & Link: 14.323 oz (MG FF), 9.832 oz (MG FF/M), 12.293 oz (MG FF/M)... unsure why the weight discrepancy between the MG FF/M variants.

Type: MG 151/20
Caliber: 20 x 82
Shell: 115g, 92g
Shell & Link: 12.293 oz, 9.832 oz (respectively)... unsure the weight discrepancies

Type: MG c/30L
Caliber: 20 x 138B
Shell: 134g
Shell & Link: 14.323 oz

Type: MK 101 & 103
Caliber: 30 x 184B
Shell: 330 g
Shell & Link: 35.269 oz

Type: MK 108
Caliber: 30 x 90RB
Shell: 312g
Shell & Link: 35.345 oz

Type: BK 5
Caliber: 50 x 419R
Shell: 1540g
Shell & Link: 164.596

Type: MK 214 A
Caliber: 50 x 419R
Shell: 1540g
Shell & Link: Unsure, 1080.3 seems a repeat of the gun weight

Type: MK 112
Caliber: 55 x 175RB
Shell: 1045g
Shell & Link: 111.689 oz

Nation: Italy

Type: Breda SAFAT
Caliber: 7.7 x 56R
Bullet: 10.1g
Shell & Link: 1.079 oz

Type: Breda SAFAT
Caliber: 12.7 x 81SR
Bullet: 36.7 g
Shell & Link: 3.924 oz

Nation: Japan

Type: Type 1
Caliber: 7.92 x 57
Bullet: 11.5g
Bullet & Link: 1.230 oz

Type: Type 89 fixed & flexible
Caliber: 7.7 x 58SR
Bullet: 10.5g
Bullet & Link: 1.121 oz

Type: Type 92 & 97
Caliber: 7.7 x 56R
Bullet: 11.3g
Bullet & Link: 1.209 oz

Type: Type 98
Caliber: 7.92 x 57
Bullet: 11.5g
Bullet & Link: 1.230 oz

Type: Type 2
Caliber: 13 x 64B
Bullet: 34g
Bullet & Link: 3.633 oz

Type: Type 3
Caliber: 13.2 x 99
Bullet: 52g
Bullet & Link: 5.557 oz

Type: Ho-1 & Ho-3
Caliber: 20 x 125
Shell: 140g
Shell & Link: 14.962 oz

Type: Ho-5
Caliber: 20 x 94
Shell: 99g
Shell & Link: 10.581 oz

Type: Type 94
Caliber: 20 x 99RB
Shell: 127g
Shell & Link: 13.574 oz

Type: Type 99-1
Caliber: 20 x 72RB
Shell: 129g
Shell & Link: 13.787 oz

Type: Type 99-2
Caliber: 20 x 101RB
Shell: 129g
Shell & Link: 13.787 oz

Type: Ho-155
Caliber: 30 x 115
Shell: 235g
Shell & Link: 25.116 oz

Type: Type 2
Caliber: 30 x 91RB
Shell: 280g
Shell & Link: 29.927 oz

Type: Type 5
Caliber: 30 x 122
Shell: 349g
Shell & Link: 37.302 oz

Type: Ho-203
Caliber: 37 x 112R
Shell: 475g
Shell & Link: 50.768 oz

Type: Ho-204 (Type 4)
Caliber: 37 x 145mm
Shell: 475g
Shell & Link: 50.768 oz

Type: Type 94
Caliber: 37 x 132R
Shell: 460g
Shell & Link: 49.165 oz

Type: Ho-301
Caliber: 40 caseless
Shell: 595g
Shell & Link: 63.594 oz

Type: Ho-401
Caliber: 57 x 120R
Shell: 1500g
Shell & Link: 160.320 oz (that looks rather suspicious...)

Type: Type 88
Caliber: 75mm
Shell: 6600g
Shell & Link: 705.408 (44 pounds of belt?)


I was thinking it would be a decent idea to include post-war ammo here as well.

 

[Shortround6]

I would be suspicious of a lot of that stuff.
French 7.5 X 54 ammo should be 7.5 x 54 ammo regardless of which gun it is used in. Bullets should weigh the same unless one listing is for ball and one for tracer but then why is the heavier bullet in a lighter cartridge?

The Hispano HS. 9 cannon used a drum feed and not a belt, there are NO LINKS. The French, although they designed a belt feed for the HS 404 never got it into service. ALL French aircraft in service in the spring of 1940 used drum feeds on their HS 404 cannon so again NO LINKS. By the way, weight of an empty 60 round drum is substantial.
the RB in the cartridge designation is for rebated rim or rebated base.

The rim is smaller in diameter than the body of the cartridge.
I would note that the HS 404 used the 20x110 cartridge, the 20 Oerlikon used the 20x110RB, I am not sure what the HS 9 used.
BTW the R on the 7.7 x 56R stands for rimmed, see 20x99R in photo above.
SO the French section is a mess.
Some of the others seem OK but some of the German stuff seems a bit strange.

How on earth the short stubby 30 x 90 rb (2nd on left) winds up heavier than the 30 x 184B (belted and 1st sound on left) is beyond me.

For the Japanese what leaps out is that the 40mm caseless didn't use a belt, it used a box magazine, there was also no cartridge case so the projectile weight and total round weight is identical.

it was a rocket fired from a rifled tube that was sealed on the rear end.
595 grams is 20.988 ounces.

There may be others but I don't have time to pick out more than the obvious at the moment.

 

[Zipper730]

I would be suspicious of a lot of that stuff.

I'm not really an expert on guns, but I was pretty sure the 37mm didn't use a traditional ammo belt, some of the belt-link weights looked too heavy.

French 7.5 X 54 ammo should be 7.5 x 54 ammo regardless of which gun it is used in. Bullets should weigh the same unless one listing is for ball and one for tracer but then why is the heavier bullet in a lighter cartridge?

What's the difference between ball & AP?

The Hispano HS. 9 cannon used a drum feed and not a belt, there are NO LINKS.

Didn't know that

ALL French aircraft in service in the spring of 1940 used drum feeds on their HS 404 cannon so again NO LINKS. By the way, weight of an empty 60 round drum is substantial.

Does the drum count as gun weight or ammo weight? It sounds silly but gun weight counts as airframe weight...

the RB in the cartridge designation is for rebated rim or rebated base.
View attachment 472379
The rim is smaller in diameter than the body of the cartridge.

So RB is a rimmed case that is significantly smaller than a traditional rimmed cartridge, or a rimless?

I would note that the HS 404 used the 20x110 cartridge, the 20 Oerlikon used the 20x110RB, I am not sure what the HS 9 used.
BTW the R on the 7.7 x 56R stands for rimmed, see 20x99R in photo above.
SO the French section is a mess.

The Japanese section also looks to be riddled with errors as well

Some of the others seem OK but some of the German stuff seems a bit strange.
View attachment 472380
How on earth the short stubby 30 x 90 rb (2nd on left) winds up heavier than the 30 x 184B (belted and 1st sound on left) is beyond me.

Doesn't track for common sense reasoning at the very least, and to be honest I'm not sure it makes sense at all.

For the Japanese what leaps out is that the 40mm caseless didn't use a belt, it used a box magazine, there was also no cartridge case so the projectile weight and total round weight is identical.
View attachment 472381
it was a rocket fired from a rifled tube that was sealed on the rear end.
595 grams is 20.988 ounces.

That's interesting!

There may be others but I don't have time to pick out more than the obvious at the moment.

No problem... this one will probably take days to sort out.

I do have a .txt file on my computer on ammo weight, but it's very rudimentary and I'm not sure to what degree it's accurate

12.7 BMG (API): 114.3 g
12.7 BMG (API-T): 115.66 g
20 x 110mm HS404 (API): 257g
20 x 110mm HS404 (API-T): 262g
37mm M4 (API): 1050g
37mm M4 (API-T): 900g

The belt used on the BMG seems to be 17.7kg for every 1000 rounds
The belt used on the HS-404 seems to be 2.828 kg for every 100 rounds
The belt used on the Browning .303 seems to be 4.64 kg for every 1000 rounds

I'm not sure if the belt-link weight varies for different ammo type or is uniform, and the bullets listed might very well have varied over time.

 

[Shortround6]

What's the difference between ball & AP?

For most armies "ball" rifle caliber ammo uses a lead or part lead core. AP uses a steel core, sometimes hardened.
This gets tricky as the US .50cal ammo comes both ball and AP and the ONLY difference between the two was that the steel core in the AP round was hardened and in the ball it was soft steel. Other armies/countries mixed things up a bit.

Does the drum count as gun weight or ammo weight? It sounds silly but gun weight counts as airframe weight...

Well, the drum doesn't go overboard when empty even on planes like the Beaufighter where the early version carried 4 drums per gun.
Gun weight is counted in "empty equipped" or "basic" weight, it is not counted in "empty" (no qualifier or adjective) or in British terms "tare weight" Be very careful with sources as some books/web sites get a little careless with which they are using.

So RB is a rimmed case that is significantly smaller than a traditional rimmed cartridge, or a rimless?

it kind of works out that way but what it is referring to, is that the rim used for extraction is smaller in diameter than the main body of the cartridge and has nothing to do with the length/size of the cartridge case. However most (all?) of this style cartridge were used in blowback action guns which tend to be lower powered than locked breech guns.

 

[Zipper730]

For most armies "ball" rifle caliber ammo uses a lead or part lead core. AP uses a steel core, sometimes hardened.

Okay so one's designed to punch through people, the other armor basically?

Well, the drum doesn't go overboard when empty even on planes like the Beaufighter where the early version carried 4 drums per gun.

So it is counted as aircraft?

Gun weight is counted in "empty equipped" or "basic" weight, it is not counted in "empty" (no qualifier or adjective) or in British terms "tare weight"

Operational Empty weight I think might mean empty-equipped...

Be very careful with sources as some books/web sites get a little careless with which they are using.

I've noticed, in some cases I can find several different figures for the same aircraft.