An excellent book with a completely misleading title
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
It is when you have a book to sell.
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- #3
The content is excellent - I really like it, but the title is disappointing. If you write a book for enthusiasts, you don't need to worry too much about the title - it may well be boring to someone who isn't an enthusiast... But mistakes are not allowed!
edgardo gil
Airman
- 29
- Dec 6, 2013
Maybe the title make reference to "fastest" in those years.
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- #5
In those two and a half year? May be. But that should be mentioned.
edgardo gil
Airman
- 29
- Dec 6, 2013
Who would be the fastest? The F-4 I guess but I don´t remember when the Phantom become operative. As you said, maybe the F-106 was the fastest only during two and a half year. That doesn´t deserve the title but then it was the fastest anyway. I don´t think that the author must mentioned that it was the fastest during two and a half year in the title, but maybe he mentioned that in the text inside the book, but I don´t read it.
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- #7
I insist that the title is completely inaccurate. It misleads the reader - there is no mention whatsoever that this aircraft was once upon a time the world's fastest single-engine jet for a brief period. Nor does the text mention anywhere that the F-106's record was broken by another single-engine jet aircraft as early as July 1962 (Georgy Mosolov, E-152-1 aka E-166, FAI-registered record No. 8514). I'm sure the authors just didn't bother to check the facts - after all, who cares about Soviet records?
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Boom
Airman
Hard to argue with that.
But to be fair to the authors, the F-106 was the fastest of the 'Century' fighters. Perhaps that was what they were thinking of when deciding upon the title. That and the fact it was a production model, not a fancy test bed, which the E-166 was.
It would be a toss up though as the whether the F-106 or the EE Lightning was the faster. Figures tend to vary, but so close to the make little difference.
But to be fair to the authors, the F-106 was the fastest of the 'Century' fighters. Perhaps that was what they were thinking of when deciding upon the title. That and the fact it was a production model, not a fancy test bed, which the E-166 was.
It would be a toss up though as the whether the F-106 or the EE Lightning was the faster. Figures tend to vary, but so close to the make little difference.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
Of course, both the F-4 and EE Lightning were two-engined aircraft. The E166 wasn't, but it was Soviet and doesn't count.
In my opinion, worst failure of the title is that it will get somebody to pick up the book and look for an exciting account of a race between aircraft and put it back when they find it a detailed history of its development and deployment without a single race!
In my opinion, worst failure of the title is that it will get somebody to pick up the book and look for an exciting account of a race between aircraft and put it back when they find it a detailed history of its development and deployment without a single race!
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Or, the publisher decided that it might sell more books, without checking with the author.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Perhaps it was regarding the world's fastest production fighter jet.
Not a myraid of one-off prototypes.
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- #12
The operational speed limit for the production MiG-23 was M=2.35 (2,500 km/h); during test or record-breaking flights, this speed could be exceeded—typically, the operational limit was 5–10% lower than the maximum speed achieved in testing. But the Soviets simply had no reason to risk anything just to achieve high speed on this aircraft. It is clear that speed measurements taken by onboard instruments without ground-based observation data are significantly less accurate; nevertheless, it is safe to say that the F-106 and the MiG-23 had practically the same maximum speed. Therefore, I dare say that the F-106 was not the world's fastest single-engine jet under any circumstances - neither as a prototype nor as a production aircraft.
PS. By the way, a website dedicated to the F-106 makes rather a strange statement about the record set by the E-152-1 - allegedly, the Soviet claims were unsubstantiated, even though the record was officially registered by the FAI.
PS. By the way, a website dedicated to the F-106 makes rather a strange statement about the record set by the E-152-1 - allegedly, the Soviet claims were unsubstantiated, even though the record was officially registered by the FAI.
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ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
FWIW
During flight testing the F-106A reached M2.4 at 36,000 ft.
For normal operational purposes the Vmax was restricted to M2.1 in order to keep wear & tear on the engine and airframe within an acceptable range. One concern was engine service life, with the result being the engine rpm above speeds of M1.8 being reduced during peacetime. But the primary concern was damage to the canopy caused by aerodynamic heating at speeds over ~M2.1.
Incidentally, the F-4B was limited to M2.1 in its early days, primarily due to engine power. But when the engine models became more powerful the acceptable operational Vmax was only increased to M2.15, for similar reasons to the F-106A.
The F-14A was normally limited to M2.1 operationally due to the TF30 engines being unable to handle the temperatures at higher speeds, although during flight tests the aircraft reached M2.34. When the F-14B entered service with the new GE F110 engines it was flown to M2.5 in tests without any extraordinary problems for the engines or airframe structure, except for the aerodynamic heating of the canopy above M2.1 which would have caused problems.
The F-15A was limited to M2.25 for similar reasons to the others mentioned above - with a limited time available over M2.25 upto M2,5 - despite the improvements in materials used in the airframes and engines.
NOTE All of the above is from official USN/USAF documentation
During flight testing the F-106A reached M2.4 at 36,000 ft.
For normal operational purposes the Vmax was restricted to M2.1 in order to keep wear & tear on the engine and airframe within an acceptable range. One concern was engine service life, with the result being the engine rpm above speeds of M1.8 being reduced during peacetime. But the primary concern was damage to the canopy caused by aerodynamic heating at speeds over ~M2.1.
Incidentally, the F-4B was limited to M2.1 in its early days, primarily due to engine power. But when the engine models became more powerful the acceptable operational Vmax was only increased to M2.15, for similar reasons to the F-106A.
The F-14A was normally limited to M2.1 operationally due to the TF30 engines being unable to handle the temperatures at higher speeds, although during flight tests the aircraft reached M2.34. When the F-14B entered service with the new GE F110 engines it was flown to M2.5 in tests without any extraordinary problems for the engines or airframe structure, except for the aerodynamic heating of the canopy above M2.1 which would have caused problems.
The F-15A was limited to M2.25 for similar reasons to the others mentioned above - with a limited time available over M2.25 upto M2,5 - despite the improvements in materials used in the airframes and engines.
NOTE All of the above is from official USN/USAF documentation
- Thread starter
- #14
M = 2.39 (2455.736 kph) at 40,500 ft according to the book.
I'll continue on this topic. Jeff Scott and Greg Alexander claim that they "have been unable to locate any records, official or otherwise, that provide proof the MiG-23 ever actually flew at this speed", but a mention of reaching a speed of M=2.35 can be found in the memoirs of Stepan Mikoyan - a Soviet test pilot who participated in the MiG-23 tests at the Air Force Research Institute In general, I have encountered the opinion among MiG-23 pilots that the aircraft had a large power reserve, and it was not difficult to reach a speed of M=2.35 (2500 kph), rather than to avoid exceeding it! The maximum speed limit of M=2.35 can be found in the official pilot's manual for the MiG-23.
I would be interested to hear the arguments that cast doubt on the Soviet records registered by the FAI - personally, I find it hard to imagine that the Soviets would risk such a blatant forgery, since the damage to their reputation in case of exposure would far outweigh any conceivable benefits. But I cannot completely rule out that possibility. It would be enough for me to have just one instance of fraud on the part of the Soviets in the registration of altitude or speed records for aircraft.
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
FWIW
I do not know if I have the document put together by the US DIA on the MiG-23 but I will look for it.
IIRC they had the MiG-23M(?) operational Vmax as being M0.1 faster than the operational Vmax for the F-4E(?), so somewhere in the M2.2-2.25 range according to US intel sources.
I do not know if I have the document put together by the US DIA on the MiG-23 but I will look for it.
IIRC they had the MiG-23M(?) operational Vmax as being M0.1 faster than the operational Vmax for the F-4E(?), so somewhere in the M2.2-2.25 range according to US intel sources.
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
FWIW
The graph for the F-106A that I have gives the normal operational Vmax of M2.1 occurring at ~40,000 ft, with the reduced engine rpm above M1.8 beginning at 30,000 ft.
The graph for the F-106A that I have gives the normal operational Vmax of M2.1 occurring at ~40,000 ft, with the reduced engine rpm above M1.8 beginning at 30,000 ft.
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- #17
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ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
Thanks for the translations.
Have you run across any MiG-23 series speed envelope graphs?
Have you run across any MiG-23 series speed envelope graphs?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
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