Another 10000 P-36/40 aircraft?

Similar to previous threads - find the way for extra 10000 P-36 + P-40 to be wanted/required, manufactured and used. The 'zero sum' 'rule' should be used - cancel or don't make something else so the resources are available - with a bit of leeway, say 20%? Of course, we don't want to cripple the Allied war effort, so most of these new aircraft need to make sense for the users (ie. need to offer meaningful performance and combat capabilities).

The first thought that came into my head was 'why would anyone want an extra 10,000 P40's'

time period would be nice.

However here are the production numbers for P & W R-1830 engines and for Allison for 1940-41

1940......................R-1830 single stage..................R-1830 two stage.................Allison
Jan...............................254.......................................................0..........................................3
Feb..............................139.......................................................0..........................................7
March...........................94........................................................0.........................................7
April.............................119......................................................0..........................................7
May..............................119......................................................4........................................14
June.............................169.......................................................1........................................30
July...............................303.......................................................1........................................73
Aug..............................432.....................................................11.......................................62
Sept.............................375......................................................33....................................223
Oct...............................498......................................................17....................................286
Nov.............................472.......................................................14....................................175
Dec.............................572.......................................................17.....................................258
1941
Jan.............................518........................................................16.....................................130
Feb............................468........................................................10.....................................400
March......................545.........................................................11.....................................317
April.........................419.........................................................3........................................138
May..........................453..........................................................16....................................395
June..........................512.........................................................30.....................................412
July...........................504..........................................................40.....................................502
Aug...........................493.........................................................54.....................................671
Sept..........................485.........................................................52......................................725
Oct............................493.........................................................96.....................................765
Nov...........................504.........................................................79.....................................845
Dec............................531.......................................................100..................................1,102

P & W was not slacking off in 1941, they also built 1,479 R-2800s Ford was starting to deliver R-2800s and in 1942 Buick would start deliveries of R-1830s in March and Chevrolet would start deliveries in April.
You need somewhere between 20-50% engines as spares.

Glider said:

The first thought that came into my head was 'why would anyone want an extra 10,000 P40's'

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Might come handy in the ww2, replacing a lot of less performing or/and so-so aircraft? Note that it is P-36s and P-40s, not just P-40s.

Shortround6 said:

time period would be nice.
...

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No great changes here: 1939-45.

tomo pauk said:

Might come handy in the ww2, replacing a lot of less performing or/and so-so aircraft? Note that it is P-36s and P-40s, not just P-40s.

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If you had the ability to produce 10,000 aircraft in late 1941-42 you would make Spitfire MkVIII's with 66 gallon rear tanks and plumbed for a 90 gallon drop tank, that way you could replace a lot of less performing aircraft like P36/P40's with an aircraft that could take on any Luftwaffe aircraft on equal terms as well as range all over the Ruhr Valley doing important jobs like escorting daylight bombing raids that would seriously impact the German war machine, even 5,000 MkVIII's are better than 10,000 of the other two.

PAT303 said:

If you had the ability to produce 10,000 aircraft in late 1941-42 you would make Spitfire MkVIII's with 66 gallon rear tanks and plumbed for a 90 gallon drop tank, that way you could replace a lot of less performing aircraft like P36/P40's with an aircraft that could take on any Luftwaffe aircraft on equal terms as well as range all over the Ruhr Valley doing important jobs like escorting daylight bombing raids that would seriously impact the German war machine, even 5,000 MkVIII's are better than 10,000 of the other two.

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??
Thread is about P-36 & P-40, not about Spitfire. There is a host of other threads dealing with improvements to both Spitfire and short-sighted air officers and their doctrines.

You said the P36 and P40 could replace a lot of lesser so so aircraft, so why replace lesser so so aircraft with a slightly less lesser so so aircraft instead of making the best single seat allied aircraft available at the time?.

PAT303 said:

You said the P36 and P40 could replace a lot of lesser so so aircraft, so why replace lesser so so aircraft with a slightly less lesser so so aircraft instead of making the best single seat allied aircraft available at the time?.

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Because I like stuff that is on-topic, vs. the off topic.

Okay, make 10,000 aircraft no one wants.

PAT303 said:

Okay, make 10,000 aircraft no one wants.

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Bravo. Thanks for your immense contribution.

tomo pauk said:

No great changes here: 1939-45.

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PAT303 said:

Okay, make 10,000 aircraft no one wants.

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In 1939-42 a lot of people/countries might have wanted more Hawk 75s (not P-36s) and P-40s.
By 1943 The US considered them trainers and by 1944 no body wanted them and production stopped.

So time period is important. They made about 4250 P-40s in 1943, they only made 2002 in 1944. Had the US wanted them they could have made thousands more in 1944 and a few thousand more in 1945 but they were pretty much scrap metal in 1945 even before the war ended.

To get more in 1941-43 you need a second factory (or two) for the airframes and one or more factories for the engines. From the original post " The 'zero sum' 'rule' should be used - cancel or don't make something else so the resources are available......"

The easiest way to get more P-40s is to make fewer P-39s
2nd easiest way is to make fewer P-38s.

But that approach certainly doesn't do much for America's fighter situation in general.

Which leaves converting one or more bomber factories and using radial engines for some sort of Hawk 75/radial P-40 Hybrid.
ANd a single stage R-1830/R-1820 really isn't that good a plane once you stick in armor, self sealing tanks, better armament (unless you are happy with six .30 cal guns) beef up the structure accordingly.

What Shortround6 said, plus if the airframes are going to be available when the various air forces would really want them - ie BoF, BoB, early Pacific campaign - there is still the pilot availability situation. If the UK, US, and France started seriously gearing up for war even just a year earlier, then maybe it would be worth expanding the production of the P-36 & P-40 at the cost of other aircraft. They were both capable fighters in the BoF thru early PTO campaign period, and the sheer numbers would make up for some of the increasing performance of the German aircraft in the European campaign. Plus improvements to the designs would inevitably be made.

Shortround6 said:

...
The easiest way to get more P-40s is to make fewer P-39s

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Okay - let's say that AAF is not pleased that XP-39 was such a flop, so they cancel the whole program. Bell still get's licence production deal for P-40 (Bell made almost 9600 P-39s).
Some other possibilities for more of the P-36/40:
- Australian production (instead of Boomerang)
- Canadian production
- produced instead of CW-21
- 'hooked' P-36 instead of Buffalo
- 'A-36' is a P-36 that can dive bomb, not the offspring of P-51 line; 'A-40' coming next
- no P-63, the P-40 gets the 2-stage V-1710 engine instead
- P-40H is proceeded with (the project with turbo that got cancelled)

tomo pauk said:

- Australian production (instead of Boomerang)

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Boomerang was built because it had some parts in common with the Wirraway which was already being built.
Hawk 75 has no common parts and in some ways a different form of construction.
It is not impossible but since the Boomerang showed up late (first flight March of 1942, first production ???) not sure what this option adds to the Allies capabilities if Aussie production Hawk 75s show up even later???

tomo pauk said:

- Canadian production

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Not quite as bad but again, what time line, using what for engines?
Build instead of Hurricanes and use single speed R-1830s?

tomo pauk said:

- produced instead of CW-21

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This just juggling numbers, in 1940 Curtiss only built 27 CW-21s and total production of all types of the CW-21 may have been 62 aircraft.
The engines used the CW-21 would have been useless in a Hawk 75. They used pretty much the same engine as the Buffaloes the FInns got. Factory that built the CW-21s also built a fair number of the C-46s.

tomo pauk said:

- 'hooked' P-36 instead of Buffalo

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anything is possible but considering the first P-36s suffered from wing skin wrinkling near the landing gear attachment points slamming them onto carrier decks with arrested landings doesn't sound like a good idea. View over the nose is worse.

tomo pauk said:

no P-63, the P-40 gets the 2-stage V-1710 engine instead

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Allison two stage shows up 8-12 months after the Merlin 2 stage is already in combat and after thousands of Merlin powered P-51s are on order.
It's possible but what is the point? aside from just building more P-40s.

tomo pauk said:

- P-40H is proceeded with (the project with turbo that got cancelled)

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A bit like the above. Nobody has figured out where the intercooler goes on the two stage P-40s?
See one of the P-60s for a turbo Allison in a modified P-40 fuselage, not pretty

Did any version of the two stage 1830 end up in the hawk airframe? And what besides F4Fs did it power?

Jay Flynn said:

Did any version of the two stage 1830 end up in the hawk airframe? And what besides F4Fs did it power?

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One two stage R-1830 was in an experimental Hawk 75 at the 1939 fighter trials.
One two stage R-1830 was in a early P-40 bailed to P & W for experimental work, about the last version of the two stage R-1830 built and it posted some rather impressive numbers in 1942/43 but by then it was too late. It may have been the 4th fastest P-40 ever built. But had no guns or protection.

Some C-47s may have gotten two stage engines for flying the hump, accounts may not agree.
Perhaps some Catalina's ? Misprints in engine list?

Another 10,000 P-40s? The following comment was from a Luftwaffe Experten; "We did not think much of the Curtiss and would confront one or two of them, but they flew in packs. Whenever we saw five or more for each of us, we had to run. Many hounds are death to the hare!"

Which Curtiss?
The Tomahawk?
The Kittihawk?
The Warhawk?

And what was the Luftwaffe Experten flying?

Shortround6 said:

Which Curtiss?
The Tomahawk?
The Kittihawk?
The Warhawk?

And what was the Luftwaffe Experten flying?

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The passage was from one of the older books on the LW. I believe the aviator who made the comment was flying 109s. Most likely he would have been speaking of P-40s he would have encountered in the North African or Italian campaigns or both for that matter; that could include both RAF and USAAF forces.

The Hawk 75 accounted for more Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of France than any other type, so it wasn't a slouch.
Considering that the Bf109, Hurricane and P-36 were all developed at the same time, there is no reason to dismiss the P-36 as a contender through 1940.