Another 10000 P-36/40 aircraft?

[MikeMeech]

I suppose, but had Britain been successfully invaded by the Germans I'd like to think that British, Imperial and Commonwealth pilots would have joined forces with the US (and USSR) rather than turning on their allies.

Hi
The USSR was certainly not an ally of Britain in 1940, Stalin had a pact with the Nazis you may recall. Even the USA was not an 'ally' as such, although the British Government appears to have promised not to let the RN ships to fall into the hands of the Germans. If the Nazis had the use of the German, Italian, French and British fleets the USA would probably acquiesced to what the Nazis desired, especially with the Japanese fleet facing the US in the Pacific. The axis controlled submarine fleets alone, in this scenario, could have created severe problems to US coastal traffic off the east coast and Caribbean judging by what many fewer German submarines caused in 1942.

Mike

 

[Admiral Beez]

The USSR was certainly not an ally of Britain in 1940

Agreed.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't know why the French fleet didn't move except that when you have battleships, Admirals seem very very hesitant to use them or even move them, both because they are so expensive and because they use such incredible amounts of fuel. And as ThomasP said, there were fascist sympathizers and so on,

I wonder what the Germans (and Italians) would have done had France not guaranteed Poland's security or declared war on Germany in Sept 1939. If France doesn't guarantee Poland nor declare war in Sept 1939 I expect Chamberlain's Britain may not either.

But Hitler can't safely invade the USSR and leave millions of potential French and British forces in his rear. So, the Germans need to go on another charm offensive, likely making a some deal with Britain and France.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

In my mind (scary place, to be honest), the French Navy had several battleships and heavy Cruisers - they could have done several actions during the Battlenof France:
One, they could have attacked German assets to the east, drawing Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine elements away from French coastal areas as well as bombarding inland in the days leading up to Dunkirk.
The only time during those days, that the French Navy came through, was assisting in the evacuation

The disaster after the Meuse crossing happened too quickly for Med units of the MN to intervene. The Atlantic units did help with Dunkirk and other ops as well, but once that was done there wasn't much to do other than the destroyers folding into Atlantic convoy service. I don't remember them being very well-equipped for ASW -- though I could be well-wrong about that, it's been a while since I've read up on them.

I was thinking more that the Med Fleet could sail down the Italian boot, challenging the RM for a fight and bombarding ports if RM doesn't accept battle; once done, make for Suez, and once at Aden (both under Brit control, refueling could be arranged) either sail for FIC or FWI ports. Just a hypothetical scenario. Workable? I'm not sure.

 

[Schweik]

I wonder what the Germans (and Italians) would have done had France not guaranteed Poland's security or declared war on Germany in Sept 1939. If France doesn't guarantee Poland nor declare war in Sept 1939 I expect Chamberlain's Britain may not either.

But Hitler can't safely invade the USSR and leave millions of potential French and British forces in his rear. So, the Germans need to go on another charm offensive, likely making a some deal with Britain and France.

Interesting concept. I was thinking of doing another thread for this subject in fact.

Another 3 months could have made a significant difference for France. They had a lot of new kit just coming online at the time of the BOF which wasn't quite ready yet or hadn't been given to the front line units yet. The D.520 had barely been deployed for example when the war started, the VG 33 fighters, and Bloch 152s* . LeO 451 and Bre 693 bombers were all just coming to their first front line units. More promising aircraft like the VG-36 and VG-39 were at prototype stage with series production just on the horizon. American aircraft such as more P-36s, and the P-40 (x 100), F4F Wildcat (x 81 for the Aeronavale), DB-7 / A-20 (x 64), Martin 167 Maryland (x 200)**, Martin 187 Baltimore***, Northrop A-17 (x 93), Vought Vindicators (x50) and Vultee 72 "Vengeance" (x 300) were also either on their way or in some cases had just arrived but not yet been integrated into their units. The French had also ordered 50 Dutch Koolhaven FK 58 fighters, of which they only got 20 in time for the battle. The BEF may have also had Spitfires and Westland Whirlwinds available in another 3 months. I'm not sure if the French had ordered any aircraft from England.

The Dutch and Belgians would have had some Buffaloes (though maybe those were all going to the Far East?), some (36?) Fokker G.1, and more DXXI fighers.

Not to mention the French also had some fairly promising ground gear like the SOMUA S35 tank, which would have been deployed in greater numbers, and the S40 may have been available. Seeing Poland get destroyed by Stukas might have inspired the deployment of more and better AAA into French units.

* Unclear if the 152s would have been any good, but the mix of Bloch 151 and 152 aircraft deployed to 9 'Groupes de Chassse' were still going through severe teething issues and being repaired and modified when the war started. Maybe they could have been sorted out, or maybe they could have been replaced by D.520s or P-36s. Same with MS 406 and 410.

** which had a 4% loss rate for the French during the war, best in the French Airforce. Later did very well for the British in the Med.

*** 400 ordered though they wouldn't be ready in 3 months!. These were very good bombers which excelled in British use and had one of the best records for bombers in the DAF.

 

[GrauGeist]

All those numbers mean nothing if the French Politicians and Military leaders can't agree and set in motion a cohesive deployment.

Most of the French airforce was caught on the ground due to indecision and lack of communication.

 

[Schweik]

Agree with that, to some extent, but it's also true that a lot (like maybe half) of the French air force had just gotten new aircraft types within a couple of weeks of the war starting. Many other units had new and much better aircraft coming within weeks or a couple of months.

If you had say, 20 more French fighter squadrons flying D.520s or P-36s (or VG 33s, or P-40s or F4Fs) instead of MS 406 and Bloch 151s, the Germans might not have managed to achieve such rapid and thorough air superiority, and I think many of their key victories in the Battle of France hinged on Stuka's breaking big holes in the French lines.

And if the French had a bunch of Martin 167, DB-7s, LeO 450s and Bre 693s (instead of lumbering and basically useless Bloch 210s for example) , not to mention that weird assortment of dive bombers they ordered, they may have been able to put a dent in some German armored columns as well. This is more iffy because the Germans had such good light AAA which was a nasty surprise for the French, but DB-7s and Martin 167s did pretty well against German forces in North Africa. If they could buy some time, the French could have gotten the battle into a stalemate. The German attack was quite daring and at points, risky. Then who knows, maybe the Americans would have sent them more kit. And I'm sure the British would rather fight the Germans in and over France than England.

On the flip side of siding with Poland, one of the biggest factors IMO was the German annexation of Czechoslovakia, they got a lot of nice kit (including I think about 1/4 of their tanks) from the Czechs.