are any still flying Harvard Mk1 or NA 49/61

Are any of the early North American NA 49 0r 61 called the Harvard MKI still flying
also are any of the wooden winged AT6C's still around I've seen many of T6's and Harvards but can't recall these

Hi Pbfoot,

>Are any of the early North American NA 49 0r 61 called the Harvard MKI still flying
>also are any of the wooden winged AT6C's still around I've seen many of T6's and Harvards but can't recall these

Hm, could you go into the identifying details?

The oldest North American trainer I ever saw probably was a Yale ... I don't know the exact NA or BT number, there was an entire series before the Harvard (which differed mainly by having a retractable gear).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun said:

Hi Pbfoot,

>Are any of the early North American NA 49 0r 61 called the Harvard MKI still flying
>also are any of the wooden winged AT6C's still around I've seen many of T6's and Harvards but can't recall these

Hm, could you go into the identifying details?

The oldest North American trainer I ever saw probably was a Yale ... I don't know the exact NA or BT number, there was an entire series before the Harvard (which differed mainly by having a retractable gear).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Click to expand...

The Yale or NA 57 was a different aircraft and later then the MKI

Hi Pbfoot,

>The Yale or NA 57 was a different aircraft and later then the MKI

Hm, I admit I meant to sum up all of the fixed-gear North American types as "Yale", like often all retractable-gear types are summed up as "Harvard".

I guess you're right with regard to the NA number that actually received the official Yale number ...

I believe the BT-9, BT-14 and NJ-1 had different NA numbers.

Was the "fixed-gear" development branch older than the "retractable-gear" branch? I thought it was, but looking it up, I might have been wrong ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

here is a pic I took( my scanner has retired ) I didn't crop it as it shows the regular tail on opposite page

HoHun said:

Hi Pbfoot,

>The Yale or NA 57 was a different aircraft and later then the MKI

Hm, I admit I meant to sum up all of the fixed-gear North American types as "Yale", like often all retractable-gear types are summed up as "Harvard".

I guess you're right with regard to the NA number that actually received the official Yale number ...

I believe the BT-9, BT-14 and NJ-1 had different NA numbers.

Was the "fixed-gear" development branch older than the "retractable-gear" branch? I thought it was, but looking it up, I might have been wrong ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Click to expand...

no the Yale was a later developement for the French Air Force

Hi Pbfoot,

>here is a pic I took( my scanner has retired ) I didn't crop it as it shows the regular tail on opposite page

Ah, thanks! I already found one with such a tail in my archive ... here it is. It did not fly that day, I believe, but it certainly looks airworthy!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Thats some sort of crossbreed check out the 3 bladed prop and different canopy(count the panels)in fact in might have a PW 1820 in it . I'm thinking its an NA44 its really confusing as it seem sto have a later canopy

Hi Pbfoot,

>in fact in might have a PW 1820 in it .

Good observation, that also would go well with the "Super Six" stencilling below the tail!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hi again,

>Thats some sort of crossbreed

Apparently, there were several "Super Sixes" - at least, some sites mention that three are still airworthy today.

The aircraft certainly is modified over a "normal" Harvard:

Photos: CCF Harvard Mk4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

(Note the airliner.net type identification.)

A German site claimed that this particular Super Six was once owned by Chuck Yeager.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

now is that the NA 44 fighter version with the PW 1820 that was sold to Thailand but were destroyed in the Pnilipines in 1941

Quite a few CAC Wirrways still flying and under restoration in Australia, another development of the Havard.

CAC Wirraway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wingnuts said:

Quite a few CAC Wirrways still flying and under restoration in Australia, another development of the Havard.

CAC Wirraway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...

yep I'm just curious about the T6C with the wooden wings and the MK1

Hi Wingnuts,

>Quite a few CAC Wirrways still flying and under restoration in Australia, another development of the Havard.

Interesting - I hadn't been aware of the differences in rudder shape before, but now I discover that both the Wirraway and the Boomerang have the Harvard Mk I tail Pbfoot pointed out ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun said:

Hi Wingnuts,

>Quite a few CAC Wirrways still flying and under restoration in Australia, another development of the Havard.

Interesting - I hadn't been aware of the differences in rudder shape before, but now I discover that both the Wirraway and the Boomerang have the Harvard Mk I tail Pbfoot pointed out ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Click to expand...

Henning, This might be a bit fuzzy but you can see the general arrangement.

Plus another fuzzy photo of Wirraway construction at the CAC factory in the early 40s. My office was off to the the right, out of view... and 40 years later of course!

Hi Wingnuts,

>Henning, This might be a bit fuzzy but you can see the general arrangement.

Ah, thanks! I realize the Warraway rudder is still a bit different to the Harvard I rudder - surprising variety there!

>Plus another fuzzy photo of Wirraway construction at the CAC factory in the early 40s. My office was off to the the right, out of view... and 40 years later of course!

Wow, must have been great to work in a place with such a history! (If you have a bit a time at work to ponder it over a cup of tea, that is.)

Come to think about it, I once worked in a building that a hundred years ago housed public tub baths for the workers of the nearby factories, but I carefully avoided to ponder that!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hi again Henning,

A bit more info on CAC in this URL:

Keith Meggs : The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation

okay is there any of the early Harvards or T6's still about and in particular any with the wooden wings

There are no Harvard Mk.I survivors of either model number and it is extremely unlikely that there are any wooden winged T-6's around as most were converted to metal when upgraded to T-6G's.There were two independant programs to build wooden components, one in the US, whose parts are generally indistinguishable from the metal versions, and in Canada where extensive changes were made to facilitate production and reduce weight. Only the US version was produced.

The earliest surviving member of the NA-16 family (North American's designation for the entire line) is in a Guatamala museum and features a round rudder (a la Wirraway), a fabric fuselage like on the Harvard I (which appears to have been metalized to protect it from being outside - a common occurance), and a square topped canopy as per the earliest BT-9's.

The aircraft posted with the "square tail" like the Mk.I was originally an SNJ, and differs in having the longer metal fuselage of the T-6, and has different wings.

North American had a large number of components that they would use to build to a particular order, and frequently mixed and matched parts - there were at least 5 outer wings, 2 horizontal stabilizers, 5 rudders, 5+ fins, 5+ centre sections, long and short fuselages with either fabric or metal skinning, 7+ different canopies, dozens of engines and cowlings, and could have one cowl gun, two cowl guns or none, one or two wings guns, or none, and could have a rear gun, or not - which may or may not have a different rear section on the canopy. All this is before you even get started on the more subtle variations of which there were hundreds. To make life even more complicated, there were two different designation systems in use by North American, one being of the form NA-16-3C (used for export orders), the other of the form NA-47. Several identical machines had different numbers (such as with the Harvard I), and sometimes a single number would represent multiple types (XAT-6E shares its number with two other types). The name "Yale" was used for both the fabric fuselaged NA-57 (of which one stayed in Canada) and the entirely unrelated metal fuselaged NA-64, which often is passed off as a BT-14, which was different again.

I have attached a profile I did of a Rhodesian Harvard Mk.I, which is probably the only place you'll even have a chance of finding a survivor as there is a slim possibility there could be a long lost wreck there since some were lost in training. Most of the RAF Mk.I's were shipped to Rhodesia when training became too perilous in the UK.

Cheers,

Mike Fletcher

Hi Pbfoot,

>The Yale or NA 57 was a different aircraft and later then the MKI

I finally found my old Yale photograph today, and from an internet search it seems it shows an NA 64. This aircraft certainly has the straight-edged rudder typical for later Harvards ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)