billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
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I certainly agree that the table shows that the trajectories of the two weapons are so similar over normal engagement distances so to make the difference almost irrelevant in normal combat. I also agree that the source of the table would be of considerable interest.
However your comment on the table seeming to assume that the 20mm had a markedly higher mv I find confusing. The results on the table are almost exactly what I would expect given the characteristics of the two weapons. Would you care to explain this comment you made?
Hi Bill,
.
If you have data on the rate of stoppages of the war-time 12.7 mm Browning, bring it on - as far as I can tell, it was a gun like any other in that regard.
What's the source of the table, by the way?
I totally agree.Maybe the table is from a later time period.
The 20mm cannon was more reliable, had a better rate of fire, and more accurate post WW2. The .50 cal guns saw some improvements, but the scope of this discussion should remain in the context of WW2.
US built 20mm HS404 based guns and their ammunition were far less reliable than UK built weapons due to changes that were made by the UK to the original French design. These changes were no made to the US weapons. No one is saying that the UK 20mm was perfectly reliable but it was probably no worse than any other mass produced weapon of a similar type in this period. The thread listed earlier gave examples of the firing tests held in the USA. As for the ammunition the best example I can give is on Malta. They had a huge number of failures and when it was looked into the fault lay with a batch of US ammunition. As a result and despite the desperate shortage of all types of ammunition Malta destroyed all US manufactured 20mm ammo. The problem then went away.My only argument as for the reliability of the 20mm, is that it must've been faulty enough to prevent the US from wanting to use it on its early to mid war planes, although the British did continue to use it despite some defects and on going development of the gun. It must've been good enough for combat, but not reliable enough for US standards.
Britain decided before the war that the LMG wasn't effective enough and decided to go for the 20mm. The 8 x LMG was almost a fall back position which by the standards of 1938 was in itself was more than respectable. These decisions for the UK and USN (amongst others) were taken before the war, the UK going for the 20mm and the US the 0.50 M2. Decisions taken during the war tended to be the result of lessons learnt and/or the aircraft available to the opposing forces. The fact that the UK faced bombers was no doubt a factor but not critical, after all the USN also faced bombers.Plus, Britain found itself defending against bombers where larger projectiles would've been preferred. Most mid war US planes were performing escort duties, so there wasn't a need for 20mm, if the .50 proved to be more accurate and reliable.
The armour on ground targets is I think an exagerated point, the 20mm did have better penetration but not enough to damage the majority of targets. It might make a difference if you targeted a light armoured car and got lucky, but not really. If you are attacking a truck then a bullet might knock a hole in it and if it hit a none vital part, do no more, however a 20mm is almost certain to wreck it.By the late war (1944-1945) the 20mm cannon was the preferred projectile because all of the problems since developing the cannon from pre-ww2, had been minimized. It had an equal rate of fire, and by late war standards, ground targets and their better armor were of increasing concern, which the .50 cal was not very effective.
I find it interesting, because they still used rockets and bombs in those situations, and the 20mm was spared for air to air uses, where .50 cal was as effective.
If I can break this into two parts.So maybe it did come down to weight and ammo load. But there are pilots who liked having the larger ammo loads of the .50 cal so they could be more liberal with their bursts. I'm sure there just as many reasons for preferring the 20mmm cannon in air to air combat.
Quite right, but the thing that surprised me about the data in the table you posted is that the drop is greater for the 12.7 mm Browning than for the 20 mm Hispano, which would indicate that the muzzle velocity of the Hispano was assumed to be greater than that of the Browning for that table. From the data I have seen, the difference is not big but in favour of the Browning, so I'd have expected the opposite relationship. I'm not sure what to make of this.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
The weight of a projectile is a component of of sectional density which is a component of BC.
Ballistic coefficient: BC=SD/i (i is the form factor [shape] of a bullet).
I also did not mention that temperature, humidity, barometric pressure and altitude are also factors.
Hi HoHun.Is that a find from the Australian Archives as well?