Armor Protection and Self-Sealing Tanks

Greyman · Jul 1, 2014

fastmongrel said:
I thought the first armour for Hurricanes in France came from crashed Battles or is that an urban myth.

stona said:
This comes from an account from Paul Richey of No. 1 Squadron. He claimed that the Air Ministry refused to fit armour to the Hurricanes in France and that his commander 'Bull' Halahan had the armour from a Battle fitted to his Hurricane and flown to Farnborough to show that it could be done. The story is rather fanciful I'm afraid. In fact by mid 1939 the Air Ministry had approved armour behind the pilot on single engine fighters and Hawker mocked up a removable 4mm armour plate to meet the requirement. An Air Ministry report of 29th August stated that "there should be no difficulty fitting this armour in service and the design of the plates is very simple."
On October 20th the Air Ministry ordered back armour to be fitted to all Hurricanes. This came too late for those in France but the facts still rather undermine Richey's story. It's a good story but not strictly true. It should probably be filed under 'aviation myths'. Like most myths it may contain a grain of truth. Maybe Halahan did adapt some armour for his Hurricane, but he certainly didn't fly it to the UK to show the Air Ministry how to do it
Cheers
Steve

From a PRO document dated 23 October 1939:

'2. an experiment has been carried out in which the armour plate fitted behind the pilot's seat in the Battle aircraft has been fitted to Hurricane aircraft. This can be easily done and involves only slight modification.

3. It is requested therefore that immediate steps be taken to provide the necessary armour plate for the Hurricane aircraft of Nos. 1 and 73 Squadrons.

4. It is suggested that immediate supplies be made from the stocks of the plates already available for Battle aircraft and the necessary modifications for fitting to Hurricane aircraft be carried out before dispatch from the United Kingdom. If, however, it is possible to obtain Battle plates which have not been drilled with the necessary holes for the Sutton harness attachment in Battle aircraft they can be drilled to take the Hurricane Sutton harness thereby avoiding unnecessary holes in the armour plate.

5. The weight of this additional armour plate is approximately 25 lbs. and has no appreciable effect on the performance of the aircraft.'

Point two on this list could quite possibly be Halahan's experiment from Richey's tale.

From a PRO document dated 19 May 1940:

'... all outstanding requirements of rear armour to complete the retrospective fitting of Hurricanes have been delivered. All new production Hurricanes delivered since 22. 2. 40. have been fitted with rear armour and the original Hurricane squadron with the B.A.F.F. have had this protection for some time.'

Glider · Jul 1, 2014

I found a reference in the Fledgling Eagles book dated 10th Jan 1940 where a Blenheim crew praised the effectiveness of the recently fitted armour if that helps

stona · Jul 2, 2014

Greyman said:
From a PRO document dated 23 October 1939:

'2. an experiment has been carried out in which the armour plate fitted behind the pilot's seat in the Battle aircraft has been fitted to Hurricane aircraft. This can be easily done and involves only slight modification.

3. It is requested therefore that immediate steps be taken to provide the necessary armour plate for the Hurricane aircraft of Nos. 1 and 73 Squadrons.

4. It is suggested that immediate supplies be made from the stocks of the plates already available for Battle aircraft and the necessary modifications for fitting to Hurricane aircraft be carried out before dispatch from the United Kingdom. If, however, it is possible to obtain Battle plates which have not been drilled with the necessary holes for the Sutton harness attachment in Battle aircraft they can be drilled to take the Hurricane Sutton harness thereby avoiding unnecessary holes in the armour plate.

5. The weight of this additional armour plate is approximately 25 lbs. and has no appreciable effect on the performance of the aircraft.'

Point two on this list could quite possibly be Halahan's experiment from Richey's tale.

From a PRO document dated 19 May 1940:

'... all outstanding requirements of rear armour to complete the retrospective fitting of Hurricanes have been delivered. All new production Hurricanes delivered since 22. 2. 40. have been fitted with rear armour and the original Hurricane squadron with the B.A.F.F. have had this protection for some time.'

Great information.

The experiment to fit Battle armour to the Hurricane may refer to the mock up I mentioned earlier. It certainly isn't clear whether this was from entirely new plates or those available for the Battle. I certainly don't think that it refers to something 'Bull' Halahan may have independently arranged for his Hurricane in France, though it certainly makes it more plausible that he did indeed fit Battle armour to his Hurricane.

All production Hurricanes being fitted by February 1940 following and order of September 1939 is actually not bad.

I think that the final quote may well explain Richey's story a little more convincingly. He wasn't the only pilot who had an axe to grind with the Air Ministry or even Fighter Command, several made a point of doing so in their later writing. The Battle armour must have arrived at the squadron at the behest of the Air Ministry which, with impetus provided by Sholto Douglas, was doing its best to provide this much needed protection to its valuable pilots. This latter point Richey has completely ignored, for reasons unknown, to embellish his story whilst casting the Air Ministry in an unflattering light.

Cheers

Steve

stona · Jul 5, 2014

Here's a couple of pictures of a 142 Squadron Fairey Battle in France, 1940. Armour behind the pilot is clearly visible.

Cheers

Steve

Glider · Jul 5, 2014

White flag raised

stona · Jul 5, 2014

Glider said:
White flag raised

LOL....not aimed at you at all, I just came across the photos an thought that they were relevant and rather good

Steve

Glider · Jul 5, 2014

they were relevant and good

Greyman · Jul 5, 2014

Honestly I'm more intrigued by the kidney exhausts ...

Glider · Jul 6, 2014

You need to get out more

stona · Jul 6, 2014

The RAF left behind Battles in France with both styles of exhaust. I've no idea which was fitted to what and when. The only reference I have for the Battle is one of the old (but good) Aviation Guides, by Ian Huntley, and I don't think he mentions the exhausts

Cheers

Steve

ohogain · Jul 12, 2014

stona said:
Tests conducted at Orfordness indicated that both .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of a Blenheim bomber. Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. Only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it. In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.
Cheers
Steve

Very interesting. I would have thought that the 7.92mm would have performed better. It helps explain why so many air forces used the .303 in their aircraft. Do you know which .303 round was used for the tests?

stona · Jul 12, 2014

Just described as .303 AP and described a steel cored round capable of penetrating, in theory, 12mm of armour plate. The tests showed that it couldn't.

The same series of tests showed that the .303 B. Mk VI incendiary bullet (de Wilde) was twice as likely to set a fuel tank on fire as the B. Mk IV incendiary tracer ( based on the old WW 1 'Buckingham' round).

I have a picture somewhere of a highly perforated armour plate fitted inside the old Blenheim test aircraft. I also have an image of the Blenheim, trestles for main gear and tail raised in a frame to simulate a flying attitude, awaiting the next onslaught from the boffins at Orfordness.

The word 'boffin' to describe the sort of scientists and technicians who not only had the skill and imagination to invent wonderful gadgets but also the ability to make them work, liaising with the military to ensure that they were practical an met service requirements was attributed to Air Commodore, later Air Vice Marshal, Peter Chamberlain.
Watson Watt records that the first man so described was Robert Hanbury Brown who spent a year at Orfordness and whose departure in 1937 marked the end of that sites involvement in radar research.

Cheers

Steve

Aozora · Jul 15, 2014

Mike Williams said:
Regarding early Hurricane armour:

Regarding early Spitfire armour:

Here is some official paperwork from November 1939 confirming the delivery of armour for Hurricanes, and the fitting of V.P propellers, with priority being given to fitting Hurricanes based in France:

Armor Protection and Self-Sealing Tanks

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