Alternative German tanks & AFVs

[GrauGeist]

The Reich vitally needs the resources of the USSR - it cannot wait five years or even two years. And the USSR will rearm and reorganize the army by the summer of 1942, after which the probability of its entry on the side of Britain will exponentially increase every month. It will enter the war with a fully mobilized army on its own conditions, while the qualitative superiority of the Germans will not have such a catastrophic effect. Yes, the Soviets would suffer heavy losses, but in the end it would cost them far fewer sacrifices.

You cannot assume Stalin would ally Soviet Russia with the west before Germanan aggression forced him to an alliance with Britain and America.

He admired Hitler and abhored the Capatilist west.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I would also note that diesel engines in 1930s and 40s were not easy to start in cold weather, or sometimes to even keep running. The Diesel Soviet tanks used compressed air for starting. I have used small diesel auxiliary engines in Firetrucks that used an electric heating element in the intake to warm the air in the manifold/intake system before you engaged the starter motor. Once the engine fired you let go of the heater switch (and this was sometimes in the heated truck bay.) Basically Petrol will give off flammable vapors over 40 degrees below zero (both scales), not many but some. You have to be closer to 100 degrees F (37 degrees C) above freezing for diesel fuel to give off flammable vapors. There are ways to warm the fuel (or air) and some diesels used either sprayed into the intake to start in cold weather (this may have been post war?). This one reason that truckers will just let the engine run while parked. My department's fire trucks were kept in heated bays (at least high 60s F) in New England.
You can solve a lot of problems, but if you need a lot of trucks in a hurry and you can get petrol engined ones that don't require as much work to operate in cold weather you may want to think about that aspect.

Having grown up in an area that does reach 40 below I can safely say that ANY engine is difficult to start in subzero weather. We used to carry two sets of keys. When spending an evening of 'fine dining' we would go out and start the car every hour and let it run for 10 minutes. At home we would plug in the engine block heater. I don't know how prevalent anti freeze was in but I would assume coolant freezing up would have been a major issue. The other essential was an electric battery blanket. Batteries perform extremely poorly in cold weather. I would wager that the vehicle whether petrol or diesel were started regularly if not left running continuously.

 

[marathag]

I don't know how prevalent anti freeze was in but I would assume coolant freezing up would have been a major issue.

As soon as Winter hit, yes. So in the 1890s as soon as water cooling was done.

Wood Alcohol was an early additive for ICE engine Radiators, but would evaporate, and needed to by topped off continuously for cold weather protection. most of the Radiators were vented, unpressurized at this point and no automatic thermostats with block bypasses.

Sometimes Glycerine was added, to reduce the corrosion issues that came along the alcohol/water mix.

Ethylene Glycol was getting popular in the early 1930s, that didn't evaporate, but didn't cool as well as pure water and still had some corrosion issues.

 

[don4331]

As soon as Winter hit, yes. So in the 1890s as soon as water cooling was done.

Wood Alcohol was an early additive for ICE engine Radiators, but would evaporate, and needed to by topped off continuously for cold weather protection. most of the Radiators were vented, unpressurized at this point and no automatic thermostats with block bypasses.

Sometimes Glycerine was added, to reduce the corrosion issues that came along the alcohol/water mix.

Ethylene Glycol was getting popular in the early 1930s, that didn't evaporate, but didn't cool as well as pure water and still had some corrosion issues.

Freezing was a major issue - water cooled aircraft would need to have the engine/radiator drained as soon as they were shutdown for the day in early days.

Ethylene glycol is harder to seal into engine - so your HL230 that was designed for water leaked with a water/ethylene glycol mix. It didn't help that Maybach had the same issues as DB - lack of quality control on the gasket - one set being hard as rock, the next still gooey.

 

[Shortround6]

Ethylene Glycol was the hot thing in aircraft engine coolant in the early 30s.
It may have migrated to aircraft use from Automobiles (first used in Autos in 1926?).
Aircraft got side-tracked with 100% Ethylene Glycol to use the higher boiling point.
Various mixture ratios had somewhat different properties.
The higher the amount of Ethylene Glycol the lower the freezing point and the higher the boiling point but the higher the chances of it leaking and the less actual heat transfer you get.
The popular 50/50 mix is suppose to 'freeze' at -35 degrees F (-37degrees C ). At this point the mixture is sort of slushy. The point of expansion that will burst radiators or engine parts is several degrees lower.
According to one antique car website the alcohol antifreeze worked pretty well up to about 160 degrees F. Hotter than that saw the alcohol boiling off at a much higher rate. For autos/trucks it was often possible to get thermostats with different temperatures so you could use at 160 deg F thermostat with alcohol in winter and change to a 180 deg F thermostat in summer with plain water.
Ethylene Glycol dates from the 1850s and was used for industrial purposes (like the manufacture of explosives) for sometime before it was used as antifreeze.

Another winter problem was there was no multi-grade oil. Straight 30 or 40 grade oil almost glued the engine parts together in cold weather and just turning the engine over could be a real problem. Lighter oil made cranking easier but might not give good enough lubrication once the engine warmed up.

 

[Shortround6]

From earlier

How is the Krupp Protze different from say a Dodge WC-62

Maybe it is my imagination but the Germans often tried to finesse things.

Not quite independent suspension(?) but independent drive axels. 4 speed transmission, 2 speed transfer(?) case and lockable (?) differentials.
The spare tires could bear a load if the ground was rough enough (crossing a ditch).

The Dodge was pretty much standard American 4 wheel drive, leaf springs, solid axles. They just added a 2 speed transfer case (the 3/4 ton 4 X 4s did not have high and low range) and the extra powered axle at the back. The American 6 cylinder flat head engine used in the 6 X 6 trucks was 3.8 liter/92hp gross/76hp net.
In some ways the Dodge was simpler, cruder. but with more power and all wheel drive it may have had an advantage in many situations.
However the Dodge 6 X 6 did not go into production until the Krupp truck had ended production (to be replaced by a simpler 4 X 2 or 4 x 4 truck.

 

[marathag]

The Dodge was pretty much standard American 4 wheel drive, leaf springs, solid axles.

nearly all of the Dodge 3/4 ton parts were interchangeable with the 1 1/2 ton Dodge, and one other advantage that some had a PTO for the winch up front.
Easier to run a solid axle with leafs in overload condition than with independent. Looks to have beefier brakes
Other advantage:

Ma Duece

 

[don4331]

From earlier

Maybe it is my imagination but the Germans often tried to finesse things.

Not quite independent suspension(?) but independent drive axels. 4 speed transmission, 2 speed transfer(?) case and lockable (?) differentials.
The spare tires could bear a load if the ground was rough enough (crossing a ditch).

The Dodge was pretty much standard American 4 wheel drive, leaf springs, solid axles. They just added a 2 speed transfer case (the 3/4 ton 4 X 4s did not have high and low range) and the extra powered axle at the back. The American 6 cylinder flat head engine used in the 6 X 6 trucks was 3.8 liter/92hp gross/76hp net.
In some ways the Dodge was simpler, cruder. but with more power and all wheel drive it may have had an advantage in many situations.
However the Dodge 6 X 6 did not go into production until the Krupp truck had ended production (to be replaced by a simpler 4 X 2 or 4 x 4 truck.

You are comparing a '33 design for the Protze with a '43 design for the Dodge

I would call it independent suspension for the rear, but interestingly, the front is leaf sprung (and springs are quite close together).
I would call it an auxiliary two speed transmission versus a transfer case
Axles are worm gear drive versus ring and pinion, with the differential also being worm, not bevel gears. So, limited slip like a Torsen or Trutrac, but different again.

Worm gear drive would allow you to keep adding axels - single, tandem, tridem, etc. but there's no way to disconnect/differential between axles, hence poor fuel mileage and hard on tires... The WC-62/3 can be run as ?6x2? with only middle axle driving so better fuel economy when you don't need all axles driving.​

397. DV Krupp Protze — D 669_309 — Dmitry Bushmakow Restoration

bushmakow.com

And if you knock the Bristol engines for needing to be greased, the Protze has 100+ grease nipples!

I would say the Dodge (and Jeep) defined American 4wd, not were.

 

[Shortround6]

You are comparing a '33 design for the Protze with a '43 design for the Dodge

Not quite. the 1943 Dodge was pretty much an up-dated 1934 Dodge

with a longer chassis and an extra axle. A little more complicated than that but it was in no way a 1943 design being compared to a 1933 design.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The Krupp Protze was designed under completely different circumstances than the Dodge. At the time the German army was planned for a total of 21 divisions. An army that small can emphasize quality over quantity and in fact should. The Americans had the advantage of observing more than two years of actual war. It's unfair to criticize decisions made years before the war started with those made well after.

 

[Shortround6]

The Krupp Protze was designed under completely different circumstances than the Dodge. At the time the German army was planned for a total of 21 divisions. An army that small can emphasize quality over quantity and in fact should. The Americans had the advantage of observing more than two years of actual war. It's unfair to criticize decisions made years before the war started with those made well after.

How many divisions were the Americans planning on in 1939-40?
The Americans came up with their plan for the standardized series of trucks, 1​⁄2​-ton, 11​⁄2​-ton, 2+1​⁄2​-, 4- and 7+1​⁄2​-ton, in 1939. True they made modifications as time went on but the basics and who was to start making them did not wait for 2 years.

Dodge 1 1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo Trucks from the 38th Infantry Service Company, 3rd Infantry Division (Marine Division),
Camp Green, NC, on the parade ground at the Presidio of San Francisco, 1935.
This not the 6 x 6, 1 1/2 ton truck of mid WW II. It is part of a 796 unit order from 1934. The Army placed further orders for the in 1938,
39 and 40 for 1 1/2 ton 4x4 model.
The US Army, in the 1930s, had decided on a 'formula' for tactical trucks of various sizes that would meet certain standards and had certain features, like all wheel drive.
The US Army certainly ordered plenty of 2 wheel drive or 4 X 6 trucks before the war and during the war but these were seldom placed in tactical units. They were used at bases or rear areas and later helped with rear area supply routes.

In some ways the Americans were trying to do things on the cheap. Big rugged frame (and if it broke, they just beefed up the basic frame), decent size engine, unsophisticated suspension. Americans were also real big on winches. They knew even the 6 x 6 trucks (of all sizes) could get stuck. The winches provided a limited self recovery system or at lease limited recovery in a group of trucks, not all trucks had winches.

It did take a lot of the mid/late 1930s for even the US to build up the capability to make large numbers of all wheel drive trucks.
It varied by company but in the under 1 1/2 ton market, both military and civilian, most light 4 x4s were conversions, manly by
Marmon-Herrington. This company provided the running gear (but little else) for the South African Marmon-Herrington armored cars, this project started in 1938?

As a further look at what was going on in the world. The British had adopted this in 1935?

6 x 4 60hp 3.5 liter 6 cylinder engine but the first production "quad" was issued in Oct 1939, so obviously the planning and ordering pre dated Oct 1939 showing the British were looking for something better.

Notice the 'tracks' on the rear wheels. Such devices were well known in the 1930s. They may have dated back to WW I and the Russians. Other people in the 1920s may have come up with similar devices independently?

This was in production in the late 1920s in the US. Around 20,000 conversions were made/sold.
The drive was to the rear axle only. suspenstion travel may have been minimal and speed ???
The conversion assembly cost nearly as much as the model T car.

The Germans had several problems with the Krupp Protze.
1, they never really improved it (minor increase in power)
2. it was too expensive for what it gave them.
3. they didn't have a good replacement plan.

The Krupp Protze may have been a very good vehicle if we don't judge it on cost.
But it was an expensive way to move 1150kg of cargo and/or 1000kg towed load.

Granted many higher rated trucks did not carry full loads off road.
US Army trucks were rated at off-road limit, even 4 x 2.
The Dodge 1 1/2 ton 6 X 6 was a full 3000lbs off road (including winch) and could carry another 1900lbs on road, it was also rated to tow a max of 8,000lbs. (speed towing is not given) but this seems to be a standard rating for most (all?) 1 1/2 ton trucks and I would guess it is for road as no other rating is given.
For context a standard US 2 1/2 ton 6 X 6 was rated at a payload of 5350lbs off road, 9,200lb on road, max towed load 4500lbs off road, 7,500lbs on road.
A 1942 Ford 1 1/2 ton 4 x 2, 6 cylinder flat bed short wheel base, was rated at 3000lbs off road and 7,820lbs on road (with helper springs). but it was hardly a tactical truck.

 

[Ascent]

There were no Allies between Summer of 1940 and Summer of 1941.
A good, hard look at the geography charts, and comparing distances in the West vs. in the East should've given the German planers a pause. Considering the enemy weak was known as 'underestimating the opponent', a thing that was known for centuries, and that bit the Nazi leadership in their rear end already by Autumn of 1940.

The German wargames prior to Barbarossa kept coming back as a failure, so the high command just said, "the results are wrong" and invaded anyway.

 

[yulzari]

The German wargames prior to Barbarossa kept coming back as a failure, so the high command just said, "the results are wrong" and invaded anyway.

Common issue in industry. Run an assessment and decide that if the result is not what is desired then conclude the fault is with the assessment assumptions. Rerun with assumption changes until the results come out 'right'.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

How many divisions were the Americans planning on in 1939-40?
The Americans came up with their plan for the standardized series of trucks, 1​⁄2​-ton, 11​⁄2​-ton, 2+1​⁄2​-, 4- and 7+1​⁄2​-ton, in 1939. True they made modifications as time went on but the basics and who was to start making them did not wait for 2 years.

This not the 6 x 6, 1 1/2 ton truck of mid WW II. It is part of a 796 unit order from 1934. The Army placed further orders for the in 1938,
39 and 40 for 1 1/2 ton 4x4 model.
The US Army, in the 1930s, had decided on a 'formula' for tactical trucks of various sizes that would meet certain standards and had certain features, like all wheel drive.
The US Army certainly ordered plenty of 2 wheel drive or 4 X 6 trucks before the war and during the war but these were seldom placed in tactical units. They were used at bases or rear areas and later helped with rear area supply routes.

In some ways the Americans were trying to do things on the cheap. Big rugged frame (and if it broke, they just beefed up the basic frame), decent size engine, unsophisticated suspension. Americans were also real big on winches. They knew even the 6 x 6 trucks (of all sizes) could get stuck. The winches provided a limited self recovery system or at lease limited recovery in a group of trucks, not all trucks had winches.

It did take a lot of the mid/late 1930s for even the US to build up the capability to make large numbers of all wheel drive trucks.
It varied by company but in the under 1 1/2 ton market, both military and civilian, most light 4 x4s were conversions, manly by
Marmon-Herrington. This company provided the running gear (but little else) for the South African Marmon-Herrington armored cars, this project started in 1938?

The Krupp Protze may have been a very good vehicle if we don't judge it on cost.
But it was an expensive way to move 1150kg of cargo and/or 1000kg towed load.

Granted many higher rated trucks did not carry full loads off road.
US Army trucks were rated at off-road limit, even 4 x 2.
The Dodge 1 1/2 ton 6 X 6 was a full 3000lbs off road (including winch) and could carry another 1900lbs on road, it was also rated to tow a max of 8,000lbs. (speed towing is not given) but this seems to be a standard rating for most (all?) 1 1/2 ton trucks and I would guess it is for road as no other rating is given.
For context a standard US 2 1/2 ton 6 X 6 was rated at a payload of 5350lbs off road, 9,200lb on road, max towed load 4500lbs off road, 7,500lbs on road.
A 1942 Ford 1 1/2 ton 4 x 2, 6 cylinder flat bed short wheel base, was rated at 3000lbs off road and 7,820lbs on road (with helper springs). but it was hardly a tactical truck.

The Germans had realized the need to sacrifice quality for quantity at about the same time as the Americans came up with their standardized trucks. In late 1938 they developed the Schell plan.

Schell-Plan

They abandoned their more sophisticated purpose built tracks in favor of modified commercial vehicles. This is when they decided to allow Opel and Ford to build gasoline vehicles in the 3 ton class. Neither of them had the ability to produce diesels. Prior to that the 3 ton vehicle was standardized design built by multiple firms using a common chassis with two choices of diesel engine which had the same mounting points for interchangeability. They produced close to 15,000 of the standard 3 ton truck before the war which was a substantial number by prewar standards. This was a capable vehicle which served throughout the war.
Einheits-Lkw .
One thing to take into account when comparing German and American vehicles is the the Germans rated their trucks differently. The Opel Blitz is rated at 3 tons but it is actually lighter than the Chevrolet 1 1/2 ton truck.
The Protze is more loved by scale modelers than the actual users.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Only the Bergius process allowed the production of aviation gasoline, although some fractions from the Fischer-Tropsch process could be used in the production of aviation gasoline as additives.

I have posted previously on this subject

WW2 bombers. If Germany had the allies heavy bombers would they have won the war?

In the build up to D Day there was also a requirement to bomb targets away from Normandy more than Normandy itself which means targets were bombed for psychological not military reasons. It is very difficult to destroy a refinery, you can damage it and it can be repaired. It should not be...

ww2aircraft.net

Also here is another paper on German synth fuels
https://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/presentations/AIChE 2003 Spring National Meeting/Paper 80a Stranges germany.pdf

 

[tomo pauk]

Would I be wrong in stating that a definitive book on the 1935-45 German energy ... everything is still to be made?

 

[Elan Vital]

Would I be wrong in stating that a definitive book on the 1935-45 German energy ... everything is still to be made?

So many books to be made...

 

[tomo pauk]

So many books to be made...

I have my sight set on you...