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A 1,000,000 man army and over 5,000 aircraft available (Jablownski, Wings of fire, 1971) No one saw white flags being hoisted.Japan was pretty thoroughly beaten by the time Lemay started his low level firebombing tactics.
I could agree to a point but no one knew the full capacity of the Japanese war machine and how long they were willing to continue the war.US possession of Okinawa and Iwo Jima meant that the B-29 was no longer the only option for a strategic bombing campaign against Japan.
Money well spent for what it brought to the table as a combat aircraft, aviation development and post war missions, I could also go into the economic aspects of employing people during its production, post war deployment, modification as a tanker, and later as a weather recon aircraft.To put things in perspective, the $3 billion B-29 program cost more than the combined cost of the all the USN's new battleships and aircraft carriers.
Japan was not beaten until the Emperor said they were...Japan was pretty thoroughly beaten by the time Lemay started his low level firebombing tactics. US possession of Okinawa and Iwo Jima meant that the B-29 was no longer the only option for a strategic bombing campaign against Japan.
B-24s cost $5,500,742,219 and the B-29 had a far higher range and far higher max. capacity per airframe. So technically, the B-24 was a waste of money, right?To put things in perspective, the $3 billion B-29 program cost more than the combined cost of the all the USN's new battleships and aircraft carriers.
Yep it was. It was designed and originally used to drop bombs from 30,000ft in day time. They dutifully used it in that way. Now they couldn't accurately drop bombs from 20,000ft at that time so it was even less accurate than all the daylight B-17s, B-24s in the ETO.
Could have, would have, should have, and when the mission was done all the equipment went back in and the B-29 became the backbone of the Strategic Air Command AND RAF Bomber Command in the post war years, with that said, your point?The impact on Japan was similar to Germany, limited (mining, the submarine blockade and the later naval blockade had a far greater effect). Plus by the time the B-29 bombing got really going they were bombing Japan from aircraft carriers....
So they turned it into a low level (less than 5,000ft) night time incendiary bomber and stripped out a lot of stuff out of it (guns, etc). Now anything could do that. All that money spent on giving it all that high altitude performance was wasted. And what it ended up doing could have been done by a lot of other, far cheaper aircraft.
Again, "could have, would have, should have." Do you even come close to realizing how much 6 or 700 UK gallons is when shoving it into an aircraft even one the size of a Lancaster or B-29???? A non-pressurized single pilot tail dragger bomber that couldn't get over 20,000 feet carrying a nuke was and is an accident waiting to happen. Yea, "tricking and stripping out," Just like Lemay did, right?As for the nukes. The Fat Boy weighed 10,300lbs, the Little boy 9,700lbs. A Lanc could carry that.... as for the range, my rough calculations make it that a Lanc with that load (and a late model with late model Merlins) needed a minimum of another 600 UK gals of fuel (4,500lbs) to make it from Tinian to Hiroshima and back. Say make it 700 UK gals and 5,200lbs for a reserve. Need a bit of tricking up and stripping out, but they did that with B-29 too.
See above - the Lanc "Could Have" done a better job than the B-24 in the PTO if used in the same capacity as the Liberator was with the 5th AF, IMO the Lanc was better than the B-24, but the Lanc was no intercontinental bomber in the same class as the B-29 and I'll once again revert to the fact of the 90 B-29s operated by Bomber Command into the 1950s. Why was that?????Anyway they could have done it from Okinawa by that time, which B-24s bombed Japan from, round trip about 1,300 miles ..easily within a Lanc's range. Heck at that range you might have been able to trick up a B-24 to carry the nukes (maybe, Fat Man maybe yes, Little Boy maybe not because of the shape).
And both the B-24 and Lanc quickly saw the scrapyard in the post war years (I recognize that the Lanc was used in limited numbers but the majority of them were gone by the 1950s). The USAF got 16 years out of the B-29, two wars as well as the first aerial tanker fleet, so tell me, do you really want to continue to crunch numbers to show the real value of the B-29???The B-29 cost $640,000*. B-24 $300,000 and the Lanc (at a 4:1 exchange rate of the time) $200,000.
That must be just the manufacturing cost, adding the development costs I get $1.4 million per plane. But I don't have the equivalent B-24 and Lanc development costs, but you'd expect them to be a heck of a lot less....
Two Wars, Two Air Forces, a 10% combat loss rate for BOTH WW2 and Korea, the first nuclear deterrent, the first aerial tanker, 4 years with the RAF and 16 years of service. There's more, (like the Soviets copying it) shall I address those facts too???? With that said - "what could a B-29 militarily do that another aircraft of the time couldn't also do at a fraction of the cost?" The TU-4!!! Things are cheaper when you steal them and build them with slave labor!!!!So back to the original point, what could a B-29 militarily do that another aircraft of the time couldn't also do at a fraction of the cost (albeit with a bit of tricking up)?
And yet, due to atmospheric conditions over the Japanese Isles, any bomber was met with the same frustration with warload delivery at designed altitudes. Be it a B-17, B-24, Lancaster or any other heavy bomber.Yep it was. It was designed and originally used to drop bombs from 30,000ft in day time. They dutifully used it in that way. Now they couldn't accurately drop bombs from 20,000ft at that time so it was even less accurate than all the daylight B-17s, B-24s in the ETO.
Keep in mind that the B-29 was also hammering targets in the CBI, from Asian bases, even though attacks against Japan were not as productive as hoped. So don't think that the B-29 was solely intended as a weapon against Japan.The impact on Japan was similar to Germany, limited (mining, the submarine blockade and the later naval blockade had a far greater effect). Plus by the time the B-29 bombing got really going they were bombing Japan from aircraft carriers....
I need to disagree here. One B-29 was capable of carrying a standard bomb load of 20,000 pounds long distance. For a bomber like the B-17 or the B-24, distance decreases as bombload increases. Even at max load for either one of those types, one B-29 is still doing the job of two bombers.So they turned it into a low level (less than 5,000ft) night time incendiary bomber and stripped out a lot of stuff out of it (guns, etc). Now anything could do that. All that money spent on giving it all that high altitude performance was wasted. And what it ended up doing could have been done by a lot of other, far cheaper aircraft.
Now we're entering the shady area of "what-ifs".As for the nukes. The Fat Boy weighed 10,300lbs, the Little boy 9,700lbs. A Lanc could carry that.... as for the range, my rough calculations make it that a Lanc with that load (and a late model with late model Merlins) needed a minimum of another 600 UK gals of fuel (4,500lbs) to make it from Tinian to Hiroshima and back. Say make it 700 UK gals and 5,200lbs for a reserve. Need a bit of tricking up and stripping out, but they did that with B-29 too.
Anyway they could have done it from Okinawa by that time, which B-24s bombed Japan from, round trip about 1,300 miles ..easily within a Lanc's range. Heck at that range you might have been able to trick up a B-24 to carry the nukes (maybe, Fat Man maybe yes, Little Boy maybe not because of the shape).
Again, the B-29 was an advanced piece of hardware...Aerodynamic advancements, new innovations in defensive turrets, pressurized cabin/personnel compartments, extreme load carrying, extreme long distance.The B-29 cost $640,000*. B-24 $300,000 and the Lanc (at a 4:1 exchange rate of the time) $200,000.
That must be just the manufacturing cost, adding the development costs I get $1.4 million per plane. But I don't have the equivalent B-24 and Lanc development costs, but you'd expect them to be a heck of a lot less....
The economics have already been covered above and when the B-29 entered service, it reclassified "heavy bomber" and introduced the era of long-range strategic bomber.So back to the original point, what could a B-29 militarily do that another aircraft of the time couldn't also do at a fraction of the cost (albeit with a bit of tricking up)?
what could a B-29 militarily do that another aircraft of the time couldn't also do at a fraction of the cost (albeit with a bit of tricking up)?
War = waste. After the fact, many programs did not live up to their early hopes. (Like others here, I don't agree that the B-29 was one of those. Someone mentioned the very effective inter-island mining program; B-29s were used to drop mines in areas that other vehicles could not reach safely/quickly, so they even get some of the credit for that.Why bother? Bombing accuracy from 20,000ft was woeful so why go to 30,000ft? To be less accurate?
The plane was insanely expensive to develop (comparable to the Manhatten project from memory).
It failed at it's primary design task and then was switched to low level incendiary bombing over Japan, which could have been done by B-24s at a fraction of the cost.
The plane was a failure by any objective measure.
Are you saying they should have gone with an improved B-19 which they easily could have?In the context of defeating Japan, and not postwar USAF aspirations, weather ops, aerial tankers, etc., it seems the "B-29 way" of going about it was not terribly efficient. I believe Churchill had reservations about the program.
Of course, when the B-29 mission and aircraft were designed, folks were unaware of all that would eventually transpire.
With hindsight, knowing what transpired, perhaps there was a better "way" of going about the air offensive against Japan.
For example, knowing today that low level incendiary and mining operations were ideal, perhaps we would have built a different aircraft.
For the mission actually performed, is all the sophistication of the B-29 necessary?
Could another craft have been developed more quickly and cheaply?
Or as the thread began, perhaps just different engines (which seemed to comprise the bulk of the mechanical problems.)
perhaps we would have built a different aircraft.
Perhaps, but you are forgetting that the B-29 would have been built at any rate. Like I said in a different thread, it was a natural progression from previous piston engined bombers to the next generation. It's technology was a considerable leap over previous types; that alone is why the B-29 was going to be built regardless of what was known at the time or what wasn't. If we don't progress technologically, we cannot expect to out do our enemies. It's evolution.
Perhaps it would have developed differently. Perhaps another aircraft would have evolved.
The B-29 was also first put on paper before WWII broke out (though the war clouds were certainly on the horizon) and it was intended to be the next step in bombers.
When the battle of Britain was underway, the urgency of the B-29 project was very clear, because if England fell (which was a serious concern), this would have been the only option to effectively strike Europe.
While many don't seem to appreciate the B-29's capabilities, it cannot be denied that this long-distance record-setting bomber was a technical leap forward.
On 18 September 1945, three B-29s left Hokkaido for Washington D.C. After experiencing headwinds, they cut the trip short by landing at Chicago, refueled and then continued to D.C. While this distance was not record setting (the RAF held the distance record set in the late 30's), it was record setting in the fact that it set record for the longest U.S. military flight, the first flight from Japan to the U.S.(5,840 miles - 9,400km) and a record breaking gross weight of 144,000 pounds (65,300kg).
Two months later, on 19 November 1945, a B-29 flew from Guam to Washington D.C., breaking the long distance world record and a weight record, flying non-stop for 7,916 miles (12,740km). The B-29's gross weight was 155,000 pounds (70,000 kg) and the flight took just over 35 hours.
A B-29 could carry 5,000lb at hi altitude over a 1600 mile radius, or 12,000lbs at low altitude over the same 1600 mile radius.
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