B24 ceiling vs. B17 ceiling

[33k in the air]

In a B-17, we have a crew of 10 people, not all of which are always lost when the aircraft is lost. In a B-24, we have a crew of 11. The B-24 has a separate nose gunner while the B-17 has a nose gunner/bombardier.

Huh? I've never seen that. The B-24 normally carried ten crew, same as the B-17. The B-29 had eleven crew, with one being a dedicated radar operator.

 

[GregP]

That is what is published where I Iooked, but you could be correct. Either way, the stuff above is aircraft survival calculations, not crew survival calculations.

 

[GregP]

Sure it is! A probability of survival, is a probability of survival, whether it is fatalities, wounded, missing in action, accidents, and so on. The starting point is different. I agree that a bomber loss is not the same as fatalities, however, the model (whatever model you choose) is the same. The parameterization is different, that's all.

Jim

The parameters we discussed above are ALL aircraft survival / loss numbers.

Not one single number discussed was crew survival-related.

 

[33k in the air]

That is what is published where I Iooked, but you could be correct.

I've never seen any source which cites eleven as the normal crew complement of the B-24. I've only ever seen ten, excluding pathfinder aircraft which might carry an additional crewman, or cases where an aircraft was carrying an observer.

The listing of crew members for missions listed at the 392nd Bomb Group website nearly always shows ten crew on board. (This dropped to nine when the ball turret was removed.)

 

[JDCAVE]

I've never seen any source which cites eleven as the normal crew complement of the B-24. I've only ever seen ten, excluding pathfinder aircraft which might carry an additional crewman, or cases where an aircraft was carrying an observer.

The listing of crew members for missions listed at the 392nd Bomb Group website nearly always shows ten crew on board. (This dropped to nine when the ball turret was removed.)

Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.

 

[33k in the air]

Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.

Much like quantum mechanics, it was all probabilities.

 

[GregP]

Yes, but my point was the model is a survival model and the model is the same.

True.

 

[GregP]

Check: Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia

Granted, Wiki is the worst source except for NO source, but I didn't feel the need to dispute the crew number when I looked at it briefly.

Technically, I suppose EVERYTHING in Wiki is suspect.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Check: Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia

Granted, Wiki is the worst source except for NO source, but I didn't feel the need to dispute the crew number when I looked at it briefly.

Technically, I suppose EVERYTHING in Wiki is suspect.

Not defending Wiki but sometimes references are given for some of the data at the bottom of the page. I feel more comfortable when I can see a second source from a Wiki article.

 

[JDCAVE]

Not defending Wiki but sometimes references are given for some of the data at the bottom of the page. I feel more comfortable when I can see a second source from a Wiki article.

Sometimes it's all we have and also what we use if we are lazy. There some material on the "care and feeding" by crews carrying the Grand Slam bomb (aka special store in the ORBs) evidently the weight of the thing caused the a/c to "wallow" and crews were instructed to not fight the wallow and oversteer. useful, as I don't have the book by Flowers.

Grand Slam (bomb) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jim

 

[33k in the air]

Check: Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia

Granted, Wiki is the worst source except for NO source, but I didn't feel the need to dispute the crew number when I looked at it briefly.

From that page's 'Design' section, at the start of the sixth paragraph down:

"The Liberator carried a crew of up to ten."

 

[GregP]

From that page's 'Design' section, at the start of the sixth paragraph down:

"The Liberator carried a crew of up to ten."

Go down a little farther, near the bottom, and look at "Specifications" and look at "Crew."

Unless I am blind, it says 11 and names them.

But, hey, I could be blind. You might think that I'm blind by my typos in here.

 

[33k in the air]

Go down a little farther, near the bottom, and look at "Specifications" and look at "Crew."

Unless I am blind, it says 11 and names them.

But, hey, I could be blind. You might think that I'm blind by my typos in here.

As I said, I've never seen any reference book saying eleven was the normal crew complement. As this is a WWII-focused forum,, I expected most people here would have some familiarity with the better known aircraft of the time, and thus have been aware that the B-17 and B-24 carried ten crew as standard. So someone not knowing that is a bit surprising to me, that's all.

 

[Simon Thomas]

[Shuffles quietly out of the room, hoping not to be spotted and asked the crew quantity of anything except single seat fighters.]

 

[GregP]

I am VERY familiar with the aircraft, their performance, production numbers, etc. I don't really pay much attention to how many are in a crew since they have to be crewed to fly. Our museum (Yank's Air Museum) has a Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer. It has a crew of 11, so I didn't think much of seeing a B-24 as 11. But, the PB4Y-2 has flight engineer station, which the B-24 doesn't seem to have. I wouldn't necessarily have recalled that If I hadn't looked it up.

But if you know every aspect and every spec number of most WWII airplanes off the top of your head, without looking up the occasional number, and you never make a mistake, more power to you. I'm not generally that lucky myself. I memorize the numbers for any aircraft I am going to fly, but I only commit them to long-term memory if I own the airplane or fly it frequently. It's so easy to misremember that I generally look up the number of anything I'm going to fly but haven't flown in a long time.

I've flown a Piper Cherokee 235, but would have to review the POH before going flying in one today. Can't recall VY just now, but I could make it around the pattern without that, I suppose. Seems like best rate was between 80 and 90 knots, and cruise was about 135 knots, but I'd still have to look them up if I was going to fly one tomorrow. Nice if you recall all that stuff without looking it up I suppose.

 

[GrauGeist]

As I said, I've never seen any reference book saying eleven was the normal crew complement. As this is a WWII-focused forum,, I expected most people here would have some familiarity with the better known aircraft of the time, and thus have been aware that the B-17 and B-24 carried ten crew as standard. So someone not knowing that is a bit surprising to me, that's all.

Also depends on what variant of bomber is being discussed - this would fall under "familiarity".

The early B-24s had ten crewmen, but from the early-J variant onward, had eleven as standard.
This was because the B-24 got a nose turret manned by a dedicated gunner. Before that, the Bombardier handled the flexible 50's in the greenhouse.

 

[JDCAVE]

Also depends on what variant of bomber is being discussed…

And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as Edit: 5 (617 squadron with 22,000 Grand Slam, WOp and MUG vacant positions to save weight).

Jim

 

[GrauGeist]

And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as 6 (617 squadron).

Jim

Occasionally, a B-17 or B-24 might have an observer, but for typical bombing missions, the B-17Gs had 10 and B-24Js had 11 crewmen for standard assignment.

The B-17 originally had 9 crewmen, but with the addition of the top turret on the B-17D variant, the crew grew to 10.

 

[33k in the air]

But if you know every aspect and every spec number of most WWII airplanes off the top of your head, without looking up the occasional number, and you never make a mistake, more power to you.

Nah, no one ever makes mistakes on this forum. We're all too clever for that.

The early B-24s had ten crewmen, but from the early-J variant onward, had eleven as standard.

The crew lists for the 392nd Bomb Group don't show this. For example: 4 Jan. 1944, 21 March 1944, 2 June 1944. All have ten crew as standard. In July 1944, it dropped to nine for those aircraft no longer carrying a ball turret gunner. Examples: 6 July 1944, 16 Aug. 1944, 27 Sept. 1944.

And also depends on the duty requirements. Lancasters typically had a crew complement of 7, but could have as many as 8 and even 9 (pathfinders). and as few as Edit: 5 (617 squadron with 22,000 Grand Slam, WOp and MUG vacant positions to save weight).

For 106 Squadron, out of 4,414 Lancaster sorties with the crew listed from July 1942 through April 1945: 4,082 had seven crew members listed; 327 had eight crew members; 4 had six crew; and 1 had nine. Of the 327 sorties which had eight aboard: 237 carried a second pilot; 48 carried a second navigator; 26 carried a second bombardier; 9 carried a passenger; 2 carried a second flight engineer; 1 carried a controller; and 1 carried a second radio operator. (3 did not have the position of the extra crew member listed.)

For 408 Squadron on its Lancaster II operations: 1,234 sorties had crew members listed, of which 684 had seven crew, 527 had eight crew, 22 had nine crew, and 1 had six. Of the 527 sorties with eight aboard: 206 carried a ventral turret gunner, and 93 carried a second pilot. (228 did not list the position of the extra crewman.) Of the 22 with nine crew aboard: 15 carried a second pilot and a ventral turret gunner, while the other 7 did not have the extra positions listed.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I do not have the B-24 figures neatly ready to go but they follow the B-17 ones. 8th Air Force B-17 Average crew sizes when lost, 1,429 lost to fighters, 1,379 lost to flak.

Month	Lost to	Lost to
Month	Fighter	Flak
Sep-42​	9.50​
Oct-42​	9.83​	9.00​
Nov-42​	10.50​	10.25​
Dec-42​	10.00​
Jan-43​	10.11​	10.00​
Feb-43​	10.27​	10.00​
Mar-43​	9.91​	10.00​
Apr-43​	9.94​	10.00​
May-43​	10.11​	10.06​
Jun-43​	9.91​	9.93​
Jul-43​	10.05​	10.03​
Aug-43​	10.04​	10.05​
Sep-43​	10.03​	10.10​
Oct-43​	10.05​	10.10​
Nov-43​	10.00​	10.00​
Dec-43​	10.04​	10.03​
Jan-44​	10.02​	10.04​
Feb-44​	9.92​	10.08​
Mar-44​	9.93​	9.67​
Apr-44​	9.90​	9.90​
May-44​	9.86​	9.65​
Jun-44​	9.57​	9.24​
Jul-44​	8.97​	9.05​
Aug-44​	9.03​	8.94​
Sep-44​	8.88​	8.48​
Oct-44​	9.20​	8.30​
Nov-44​	8.31​	8.53​
Dec-44​	7.92​	8.77​
Jan-45​	9.54​	8.39​
Feb-45​	9.17​	8.11​
Mar-45​	8.78​	8.66​
Apr-45​	9.03​	8.88​