Bailing out or Ditching at Sea: Which was Safer?

[fubar57]

From WW1 website...

"Some aces in both World Wars were naturally good shots, but many were not - they just got so close that they couldn't miss. It was very difficult to teach deflection shooting and most pilots were very poor at it. The USAAF in WW2 discovered that their good shots nearly all came from the countryside and were naturally skilled at deflection shooting - with shotguns against birds.

The RAF in the late 1930s did some exercises using camera guns attached to fighters who were sent to 'attack' bombers, and were horrified to find that they nearly all missed by a large margin. This led to the development of the gyro gunsight which eventually solved the problem. "

Deflection Shooting​

 

[Navalwarrior]

From WW1 website...

"Some aces in both World Wars were naturally good shots, but many were not - they just got so close that they couldn't miss. It was very difficult to teach deflection shooting and most pilots were very poor at it. The USAAF in WW2 discovered that their good shots nearly all came from the countryside and were naturally skilled at deflection shooting - with shotguns against birds.

The RAF in the late 1930s did some exercises using camera guns attached to fighters who were sent to 'attack' bombers, and were horrified to find that they nearly all missed by a large margin. This led to the development of the gyro gunsight which eventually solved the problem. "

Deflection Shooting​

Resp:
Post WWII assessment by a British national found that Americans and Canadians were the best shots.

 

[fubar57]

Please don't quote and "Resp:" me, I find it overly pretentious

 

[PAT303]

I remember reading an RAE report based on findings from wrecks examined during the BoB that found that an overwhelming majority of the aircraft shot down were hit from no more than a few degrees off bore by the attacking aircraft, as someone who has taught many people how to rifle shoot and watch them miss stationary targets it does not surprise me that so many were able to miss a moving one.

 

[Navalwarrior]

This bugged me in the movie Dunkirk, where the Spitfire pilot upon deciding he is going to ditch, closes his canopy, and nearly drowns when it jams! I know, it's a movie, but dammit, jettison that canopy like the book tells you to.

Resp:
I have watched 'Dunkirk' at least four times. It is a great movie. I think that the movie was trying to show young pilots w little or no combat experience. Remember, this was very early in the war. So to me, their lack of leading the target/closing the canopy prior to ditching . . . May have been long before 'detailed instructions' were common place. Historically, an early Mark Spitfire did land 'intact' on the beach at Dunkirk. It was sent to Germany, where it remained until found by the allies at the end of the war in Europe in 1945. Apparently, it was test flown by the Lufwaffe to determine its capabilities.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Resp:
I have watched 'Dunkirk' at least four times. It is a great movie. I think that the movie was trying to show young pilots w little or no combat experience.

It was a surprise that pilot officer Sir Michael Caine gets killed right at the beginning, akin to his taking a iklwa through the eye in the opening credits of Zulu.

 

[Greyman]

I think that the movie was trying to show young pilots w little or no combat experience.

My Occam's Razor rationale is that deflection shooting is as nonintuitive to filmmakers as it is to the general public as it is to 20-year-old fighter pilots with precisely zero gunnery training.

 

[Navalwarrior]

My Occam's Razor rationale is that deflection shooting is as nonintuitive to filmmakers as it is to the general public as it is to 20-year-old fighter pilots with precisely zero gunnery training.

Reps:
Possibly, but I would think that there were mil pilots there to advise.

 

[Greyman]

Possibly, but then the public/test audiences constantly wonder why the pilot's aim is so bad and putting all of his bullets so far ahead.

 

[pbehn]

Resp:
Post WWII assessment by a British national found that Americans and Canadians were the best shots.

When using a British developed gyro gunsight. The actual masters were the Poles and Czechs of 303 squadron who didn't believe all that deflection nonsense and opened fire at point blank range. A deflection shot at 600-800 yards usually just told your enemy you were there and where you were.

 

[Navalwarrior]

When using a British developed gyro gunsight. The actual masters were the Poles and Czechs of 303 squadron who didn't believe all that deflection nonsense and opened fire at point blank range. A deflection shot at 600-800 yards usually just told your enemy you were there and where you were.

Resp:
There was an USAF F-86 pilot during the Korean War who stuck piece of chewing gum on his windscreen as a reference for shooting. He was a high scoring pilot.

 

[Admiral Beez]

When using a British developed gyro gunsight.

Tutorial on gyro gunsight...

 

[Hoosier Hot Shot]

As a crew man in a B24 over the Pacific, I would ditch every time. Landing in the vast Pacific Ocean with nothing but a Mae West life jacket is just postponing the inevitable.
Only if the aircraft was on fire and/or out of control.

 

[haitipro]

Even the Operating manual said 'bail out'. IIRC not one 355th FG pilot survived a ditching in the P-51.

When I was with 403 RCAF Squadron, in Calgary, during the sixties, we had a War Two Mustang pilot, Freddie Clarke. He was the first to be shot down in the type. He ditched in the Channel and received a terrible gash on his face from collision with the gun sight. The radiator scoop turned him into an instant submarine.
His number two shot down the FW-190 that hammered Clarke, becoming the first Mustang kill of the war. If I remember correctly, Clarke's number two was an American with the RCAF.
So, within a minute the P-51 saw its firs combat loss and victory in the same engagement.

 

[Navalwarrior]

When I was with 403 RCAF Squadron, in Calgary, during the sixties, we had a War Two Mustang pilot, Freddie Clarke. He was the first to be shot down in the type. He ditched in the Channel and received a terrible gash on his face from collision with the gun sight. The radiator scoop turned him into an instant submarine.
His number two shot down the FW-190 that hammered Clarke, becoming the first Mustang kill of the war. If I remember correctly, Clarke's number two was an American with the RCAF.
So, within a minute the P-51 saw its firs combat loss and victory in the same engagement.

Resp:
And Clarke's Mustang had the smaller scoop (Allison engine). I also doubt Clarke had much of an opportunity to control his Mustang prior to striking the water. Altitude, or lack of it, likely played a major part in his ditching.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Collision with gunsight was a common occurance during ditching.