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I don't know the figures for the Do 17 and the Ju88 but before making such a statement I suggest you try to find the loss ratio for the number of missions flown, not the number of aircraft in the battle.
The men who flew them weren't inexperienced if boom and zoom tactics would have worked that's what they would have used. Instead every RAF account from the BOB I have ever read of encounters with the type speaks of them forming defensive circles which really says everything you need to know about what the actual pilots thought of their chances in combat with Hurricanes and Spitfires.
Taking each point one at a timeGilder, the errors or omissions in your points are:
1. The 110C has a higher alt celling then Hurricane I or Spit Ia, so neither of them could intercept.
2. 3/4 of the RAF defenders where Hurricane's, Defiant's, and others which was slower then the 110.
3. The prime RAF target was the bombers, not fighters.
4. 110 has concentrated firepower that offered longer range and powerful cannons.
5. A tail gunner, and there are records of that single MG-15 forcing pursuers to break off from attack.
Against fighters that are as good or better than you in a climb you are on to a loser. The Me110 doesn't accelerate as well or dive as well.When I said "Correct tactics", it was using and alt advantage well over the bombers, zooming in to attack the Spit and Hurricanes attacking the bombers, taking advantage of its no-convergence (horizontal) and fire at longer range and keep firing longer, finally pulling up and away from the attack. Any Spit or Hurri that attempted to pursue would likely (unless they had some alt and position advantage) would spend a long time closing in on the 110, and be peppered by the 110 TG.
The AVG had a speed advantage over the Oscar of about 40-60mph and more in a dive. The Me110 is slower than the Spit and about the same as the Hurricane a major difference.Sound like the same tactic the AVG did in China against the Japanese??
Absolutely, and they dominated the skies simply by avoiding all turn fight engagements and trading alt for speed to make a slash attack and zoom away (boom and zoom). Of course eventually the 110 would lose its built up speed, but the Hurri will be in the dust, and the Spit would have to chase it far, risking being a stilling duck for another 110 or 109.
As to what you provided, they are what is known as "Sweeping Generalization Fallacies", taking individual performance characteristics as supporting proof the 110 was a terrible fighter. And it looks like some of the items are outright false.
(BTW, what is your source?)
para 54 The Hurricane 1 and Spitfire Vb were able to turn inside the Me110 at all hights.
Known and accepted, and given the 110 is a larger airplane it is plausible (however a poorly designed single engine aircraft could have a larger turn circle).
para 54 The Hurricane 1 and Spitfire Vb were able to turn inside the Me110 at all hights.
para 55 The initial acceleration of the me110 in a dive was better than the SPitfire and the Hurricane but both were able to catch the Me110 and hold it with ease.
If the Hurri is known to be about 20~30 mph slower then the 110, how could it ever catch up with it?
para 58 The angle of climb of the me110 is steaper than the Hurricane I and the Spitfire but these aircraft should not try to follow the me110 in a climb as they will not be making the best use of their own rates of climb, which in the case of the Hurricane 1 is equal to the Me 110 and in the Spitfire is considerably superior.
Here we have an Vx and Vy comparison, where the 110 can climb at a steeper angle (due to 2 engines) then the Hurricane or Spitfire. A well trained and smart RAF pilot would climb at Vy (which would be faster then the 110 can in pure climb performance) at a safe distance from the 110, gain alt advantage, and attack.
However most RAF pilots had little experience and would press the attack to their disadvantage, setting up a perfect target for the 110 rear gunner
Para 58 basically support that tactics argument. It is not the machine, but the pilot that determines the winner.
You concluded with:
This is a "Hasty Generalization Fallacy", saying if the RAF Spit Vb can catch the 110, then all RAF aircraft could match the 110.
How can anyone make an accurate scientific assertion comparing an old aircraft with a newer one of a different model?
Your posts is not much different then saying man never walked on the moon by using a few select examples from questionable sources.
S!
Taking each point one at a time
1 True the Me110 does have a high ceiling but when did they ever fly at 35,000ft when escorting He111 with a max altitude of approx 22,000ft, Ju88 at approx 27,000ft, Do 17 at around 19,000ft, Ju87 at 26,000ft
2 The only defenders that count are Spitfires and Hurricanes and the Hurricane was faster by 10-15mph at 5,000ft and 3-4 mph slower at 20,000 ft para 46 Me110 tactical trials, the spitfire faster at all altitudes
3 True but where possible Spitfires went for the escorts and Hurricanes the bombers
4 True but you have to point them at the target first
5 True but there were many other times when the Gunner was ignored. In a contest between 8 x LMG in the wing and one hand held by the Tail Gunner the money is on the fighter.
...
Against fighters that are as good or better than you in a climb you are on to a loser. The Me110 doesn't accelerate as well or dive as well.
...
The AVG had a speed advantage over the Oscar of about 40-60mph and more in a dive. The Me110 is slower than the Spit and about the same as the Hurricane a major difference.
...
You don't know me very well do you. Attached is the summary of the Tactical trials held between the Me110 and Hurricane 1 and Spitfire 5B. I would appreciate a retraction that my items are false.
My statement read as you rightly quoted The Spitfire in the test was a 5b but if a Hurricane 1 can match the Me110 I am confident a Spitfire 1 will as well.
This is because the two RAF aircraft in the test were a Spitfire V and a Hurricane 1. I was only pointing out that it was a Spitfire V in the test but that if a Hurricane 1 can match an Me110 then I am sure that a Spitfire 1 would do so as well. Its a fair comment and made because I didn't want people to make a false assumption that the Spitfire in the test was a Mk1.
PS I did give my source when I said Quote from the Me110 Tactical trials As I said earlier I await your retraction.
Ok, let me start from the bottom, going up.
I made the assumption you had good data, and it sounded like an RAF review, but a title reference of Me110 Tactical trials would be dismissed by any school teacher (let alone professor). At least is should say the author or authority, and best with date:
"Me110 Tactical trials", RAF FAE, 1942.
But I admit to not doing a good job to listing my resources too.
On the subject of Altitudes.
"Bf-110 at 35,000ft, when escorting He111 with a max altitude of approx 22,000ft, Ju88 at approx 27,000ft, Do 17 at around 19,000ft, Ju87 at 26,000ft"
If you are an escort, what better way to watch your charge then to be about 2 miles above the formation watching for EA? (10 mile visibility is typical baring clouds, and as a pilot I can easily spot aircraft 2 to 4 miles away (less if they are dark / camouflaged)
A speed difference of 3-5 mph is nothing and easily within the parameters of one aircraft to another of the same type and to bet the lives on ypur pilots on it would be rash to say the least.Even if the Hurricane is faster below 5000ft, but the engagements occurred much higher. Again a case of correct tactics.
The bottom line to my argument all along is if the 110 was used strictly to its advantages it would have done quite well against the RAF, which again had limited numbers of the one real threat, the Spitfire.
The LW did not, and they suffered large losses.
Bottom line, it is the tactics and pilots, not just the machine.
S!
....
PS I am still waiting for a retraction that I was making things up
Look how well the P-38 did.
In 1940 the 110 was much like the P-38, not as good relatively speaking, but no slouch.
As long as the 110 jock did not dog fight with the enemy units (EA), but instead "boom and zoom" attacks (diving from alt, unloading full firepower at target, and then climb away to set up for next pass), using its speed to get away, while the tail gunner would pepper any EA that would slowly close in (a diving 110 is faster then a level flying Spitfire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesofprimus
Agreed Glider, the 110 from the very outset of hostilities in 1939 was outclassed... .
I actually like the 110 alot guys, dont get me wrong... I will retract my previously erroneous statement and revise it with this one:A "Hasty Generalization Fallacy" and "Sweeping Generalization Fallacy" all rolled into one.
In 1939 the LW dominated the skies over much of the skies.
It wasn't until the BoB, mid 1940, did the LW realize the 110 was in trouble.
Considering how many books have been written about the Battle of Britain and the aircraft that fought in it, if the Me-110 had acquitted itself well as a fighter in A-A combat during the Battle, we would've read about it by now.
Frantish
Many thanks
An interesting thought is how would the Me110 had done had the RAF been equipped with them, instead of the Hurricane. Having a fast aircraft with considerable firepower that didn't have to hang around the bombers and could head inland at max speed without worrying about fuel after one pass. If the escorts went after them the escort would of course have the advantage, but would leave the bombers without cover.
We could have a situation where one aircraft is a liability to the Germans but a positive boon to the RAF
Frantish
Many thanks
An interesting thought is how would the Me110 had done had the RAF been equipped with them, instead of the Hurricane. Having a fast aircraft with considerable firepower that didn't have to hang around the bombers and could head inland at max speed without worrying about fuel after one pass. If the escorts went after them the escort would of course have the advantage, but would leave the bombers without cover.
We could have a situation where one aircraft is a liability to the Germans but a positive boon to the RAF
Well, if the RAF had swapped the Me-110 for the Hurricane, that would mean that RAF's Fighter Command would be equipped with twice as many Me-110s as Spitfires, while the Luftwaffe's single seat fighter would still have been the Me-109. IMO, the Me-110 would have been less of a match for the Me-109 (than the Hurricane was), and Fighter Command would have suffered heavier losses.
According to the book The Turret Fighters by aviation historian Alec Brew, 264 Sqn. developed a counter against single-seat aircraft such as the Bf 109. By flying in an ever-descending Lufberry circle, Defiant crews sacrificed the advantage of height but eliminated the possibility of attack from underneath, while giving 360° of defensive fire.[12] This tactic was used successfully by 264 Sqn. but when the Defiants of 141 Sqn. were committed to combat a few months later during the Battle of Britain, it chose to ignore their advice with devastating consequences. On 19 July 1940, seven out of nine Defiants of 141 Sqn. sent to cover a convoy off Folkestone were shot down and the remaining two only survived, one badly damaged, due to the intervention of Hurricanes of 111 Sqn.
I don't think that is correct. The Luftwaffe experimented with the Rotte (2 aircraft) and Schwarm (4 aircraft. A pair of Rotte) during the Spanish Civil War. They also worked out dive zoom tactics for the Me-109. These aerial combat techniques were standardized by 1939.When WW2 started, everyone was still doing WW1 style air combat.
Until fighter aircraft received a gyrostabilized gun sight maximum effect combat range was only about 300 meters and good pilots typically opened fire at half that distance. So I don't think low velocity was a major problem for aircraft cannon during 1939 to 1943.MG/FF in the 110 was a low velocity weapon of somewhat limited practical range.