Battle of Britain Hurricane or Wildcat

fastmongrel · Mar 24, 2010

I have restored 4 classic British motorbikes and 2 classic British cars. It is quite amusing to watch people who can work on modern Japanese or Italian bikes and modern cars struggle with the old stuff. They cant understand it, it's simpler with less moving parts it must be easy to work on so they plough on getting deeper and deeper in the mire. There are a lot of dodges and tricks to learn when working with old stuff you cant just throw a part at it and expect it to slot in place. In the days before modern precision manufacturing most parts were fitted by hand and all fitters/mechanics knew this and were taught this during there apprenticeship.

Working on the Hurricanes tubular fuselage would never be easy but if you were brought up on this technology I bet you would know all sorts of bodges and tricks that have just been forgotten these days.

An example of long forgotten tricks was shown to me when I was restoring an old Wolsley car with my brother. We couldnt get the doors to fit we tried and tried but just couldnt get the hinges and locks to marry. They werent the original doors but were from the same model. We ended up taking the car and doors to an old boy who at the time must have been in his late 70s retired and not particulary sturdy looking. His eyes lit up when he saw the old girl he got his still immaculate tool kit out of the shed and within half an hour he had one door fitting beautifully and the other done another hour or so later. He wouldnt take any payment he said it was a pleasure to do the work so we took him to the pub and filled him up with beer.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 24, 2010

fastmongrel said:
I have restored 4 classic British motorbikes and 2 classic British cars. It is quite amusing to watch people who can work on modern Japanese or Italian bikes and modern cars struggle with the old stuff. They cant understand it, it's simpler with less moving parts it must be easy to work on so they plough on getting deeper and deeper in the mire. There are a lot of dodges and tricks to learn when working with old stuff you cant just throw a part at it and expect it to slot in place. In the days before modern precision manufacturing most parts were fitted by hand and all fitters/mechanics knew this and were taught this during there apprenticeship.

Working on the Hurricanes tubular fuselage would never be easy but if you were brought up on this technology I bet you would know all sorts of bodges and tricks that have just been forgotten these days.

An example of long forgotten tricks was shown to me when I was restoring an old Wolsley car with my brother. We couldnt get the doors to fit we tried and tried but just couldnt get the hinges and locks to marry. They werent the original doors but were from the same model. We ended up taking the car and doors to an old boy who at the time must have been in his late 70s retired and not particulary sturdy looking. His eyes lit up when he saw the old girl he got his still immaculate tool kit out of the shed and within half an hour he had one door fitting beautifully and the other done another hour or so later. He wouldnt take any payment he said it was a pleasure to do the work so we took him to the pub and filled him up with beer.

Restoring old cars and motorcycles are a lot different than restoring aircraft. For the most part many of the old processes used to build the aircraft being restored will have to be used to re-certify the aircraft if it is to fly again. There aren't many "dodges and tricks to learn" when working with aircraft, unless the particular aircraft was handbuilt, and in the case of the Hurricane, I doubt you'll see any major "hand built idiosyncrasies" unless you're dealing with the very first ones built. Even though fabric work is somewhat of a dying art in some circles, you can still find people who can do it and there are newer processes (Polyfiber) that can be used to make the process easier should the restorer choose to do so.

I don't understand your comment on the tubing. There is nothing in today's world that will make either fabricating that tubing or repairing it any different. There is no "trick" in restoring a wing rib or forming a new skin. For the most part those restoring aircraft are using the same methods that were used to build the aircraft in the first place. I deal with a company that specializes in aircraft restoration and the only modern process they have come up with is a method in riveting inside corrugated reinforced skins found on a P-38. They had to make special bucking bars that fit inside the corrugations and use compress air for pressure so solid rivet can be used in the restoration.

Jerry W. Loper · Jul 14, 2011

There wasn't a whole lot to choose between the two in overall performance - that being more or less equal, I'd pick the Hurricane because it had the same armament and engine as the Spitfire.

RCAFson · Jul 15, 2011

The Hurricane was considerably easier and cheaper to build than the Spitfire:

As early as January 1940 when the first wartime programme embodying the heavy bombers was settled, it was reckoned that ratios of weight to man-hours would, for the principal types, work out as follows:

Airframe structure weight / Average man-hours per lb. / structure weight per 1,000 man-hours
FIGHTERS
lb. / thousands

Spitfire
2,055 / 15.2 / 135
Hurricane
2,468 / 10.3 / 240
Whirlwind
3,461 / 26.6 / 130
Tornado
3,600 /15.5 / 233

HyperWar: British War Production [Chapter IV]

Nxthanos · Jul 15, 2011

Interesting topic, i would select a wildcat for a number of reasons, such as:

Could take more battle damage
Faster in level flight
MUCH faster in a vertical dive
Superior armament

Wildcats could and did take on zeros well into 1942 with sucess, the hurricanes, often Mk IIs did not do well vs the vaunted zerosens.

RCAFson · Jul 15, 2011

I don't know how to quantify battle damage, but the Hurricane was capable of taking quite a bit of damage.

The Hurricane was definitely faster than the Wildcat

I doubt there was much difference, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Hurricane was faster in a dive, since the F4F couldn't even out dive a zero.

Armament might be better than 8 x .303 but the cannon armed Hurricane was far more potent.

Under similar tactical situations I would expect the Hurricane to outscore the F4F, since it was faster, could much climb faster, turn better, probably roll better. and probably outdive the F4F.

Glider · Jul 16, 2011

Cannon armed Hurricanes were not an option in the BOB so I am afraid that wouldn't work. As for the last section I would expect the Wildcat to roll and dive faster than the Hurricane and a small but valid point, the engine wouldn't cut when first doing a punt eliminating one of the Luftwaffe key tactics for evading a Hurricane.

As for turning I do not know, they were both pretty agile and I would expect both to turn inside the Me109 which is the bit that really counts.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
I don't know how to quantify battle damage, but the Hurricane was capable of taking quite a bit of damage.

The Hurricane was definitely faster than the Wildcat

I doubt there was much difference, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Hurricane was faster in a dive, since the F4F couldn't even out dive a zero.

Armament might be better than 8 x .303 but the cannon armed Hurricane was far more potent.

Under similar tactical situations I would expect the Hurricane to outscore the F4F, since it was faster, could much climb faster, turn better, probably roll better. and probably outdive the F4F.

Hurricane faster in a dive??? The F4F couldn't outdive a zero??? I've never read that anywhere. Dive speed was one of the few advantages the Wildcat had on the zero. Somewhere buried in this forum, someone else put in a thread that in North Africa a German Ace in a 109 was dogfighting a Wildcat and the Wildcat got on his tail so he did what he always did to shake Spits and Hurricanes, he flipped over and dropped into a dive. When he looked over his shoulder he was suprised to see the Wildcat glued to his tail firing away at him. The German Ace said the reason he wasn't shot down was the guy was a terrible shot. I dont know if the Wildcat could outdive a 109 but it was at least an equal.

As far as tough, even if airframes are equal, you still have watercooled vs aircooled giving that advantage to the Wildcat.

Readie · Jul 16, 2011

pinsog said:
you still have watercooled vs aircooled giving that advantage to the Wildcat.

The Wildcat, while undoubtedly robust was a stop gap till the Hellcat arrived to met the Zero on equal terms in the Pacific.
We needed the brute power of the in line Merlin to meet the LW in the BoB, a 1940 US Radial did not have the performance we needed.
Cheers
John

RCAFson · Jul 16, 2011

pinsog said:
Hurricane faster in a dive??? The F4F couldn't outdive a zero??? I've never read that anywhere. Dive speed was one of the few advantages the Wildcat had on the zero. Somewhere buried in this forum, someone else put in a thread that in North Africa a German Ace in a 109 was dogfighting a Wildcat and the Wildcat got on his tail so he did what he always did to shake Spits and Hurricanes, he flipped over and dropped into a dive. When he looked over his shoulder he was suprised to see the Wildcat glued to his tail firing away at him. The German Ace said the reason he wasn't shot down was the guy was a terrible shot. I dont know if the Wildcat could outdive a 109 but it was at least an equal.

As far as tough, even if airframes are equal, you still have watercooled vs aircooled giving that advantage to the Wildcat.

The USN compared a captured Zero with an F4F-4:

and the two were judged equal in a dive.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/intelsum85-dec42.pdf
AFAIk, the Hurricane was as good or slightly better than a Spitfire in roll rate and here's the Spitfire compared to an F4F-3:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

The F4F might gain a slight advantage in initial dive rate, but the superior power to weight ratio of the Hurricane would quickly allow it to overtake the F4F.

RCAFson · Jul 16, 2011

Glider said:
Cannon armed Hurricanes were not an option in the BOB so I am afraid that wouldn't work. As for the last section I would expect the Wildcat to roll and dive faster than the Hurricane and a small but valid point, the engine wouldn't cut when first doing a punt eliminating one of the Luftwaffe key tactics for evading a Hurricane.

As for turning I do not know, they were both pretty agile and I would expect both to turn inside the Me109 which is the bit that really counts.

The F4F was only an option if someone had the foresight to get it into production sooner, and the same could be said for cannon armed Hurricanes which were in testing before and during the BofB, although personally I think the Vickers .5" would have been a better weapon than the .303 BMG, and would have been available right from the start.
Wing loading
Me109e3 = 30.76
F4F-4 = 30.5 (7930lb)
F4F-3 = 28.46
Hurricane I = 26.26 (6750lb)

The F4F-4 has only a slight edge over the 109.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
The USN compared a captured Zero with an F4F-4:

and the two were judged equal in a dive.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/intelsum85-dec42.pdf
AFAIk, the Hurricane was as good or slightly better than a Spitfire in roll rate and here's the Spitfire compared to an F4F-3:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

The F4F might gain a slight advantage in initial dive rate, but the superior power to weight ratio of the Hurricane would quickly allow it to overtake the F4F.

I can't lay my hands on the specific posts, but on this forum, and other places, I have read that the Wildcat could dive with an Me109, and they had equally good evidence to back up that opinion. I wish I could find those posts, but there are only about 8 million posts on this forum!

RCAFson · Jul 16, 2011

pinsog said:
I can't lay my hands on the specific posts, but on this forum, and other places, I have read that the Wildcat could dive with an Me109, and they had equally good evidence to back up that opinion. I wish I could find those posts, but there are only about 8 million posts on this forum!

I know what you mean about the trying to find things on this forum...

However, the Me109 had much smaller frontal area than a F4F and equal or greater power. A 109 will outdive an F4F and a Hurricane; the Spitfire would eventually catch it in a dive, but initially it would pull away from the Spit as well.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
I know what you mean about the trying to find things on this forum...

However, the Me109 had much smaller frontal area than a F4F and equal or greater power. A 109 will outdive an F4F and a Hurricane; the Spitfire would eventually catch it in a dive, but initially it would pull away from the Spit as well.

Found it, search for Wildcat vs me109 on this forum. Everyone on that particular thread say that the Wildcat will actually OUTDIVE an Me109E but someone said NOT a 109F.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
I know what you mean about the trying to find things on this forum...

However, the Me109 had much smaller frontal area than a F4F and equal or greater power. A 109 will outdive an F4F and a Hurricane; the Spitfire would eventually catch it in a dive, but initially it would pull away from the Spit as well.

I found it, search for Wildcat vs Me109 on this forum. Most everybody said a Wildcat would OUTDIVE an Me109E, but one guy said a 109F would outdive the Wildcat.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

Nice double post. I looked and that wasnt there, so I retyped it and then it came back. I hate computers......

RCAFson · Jul 16, 2011

Well, I am very sceptical about that. I posted this before, but I can't find my original so here it is again:

P.210, DUELS IN THE SKY
F4F-4 Wildcat Versus Sea Hurricane IIC
Here were two fighters almost evenly matched in combat perform-
ance and firepower, with the British fighter holding the edge. The
Hurricane could exploit its superior rate of roll, the Wildcat its steeper
angle of climb. In a dogfight the Hurricane could outturn the Wild-
cat, and it could evade an astern attack by half rolling and using its
superior acceleration in a dive.
Verdict: This is a combat I have fought a few times in mock
trials. The Hurricane could usually get in more camera gunshots than
the Wildcat, but for neither was this an easy job. The Hurricane
would probably have been more vulnerable to gun strikes than the
Wildcat.

Brown seems to imply a superior RoC for the F4F-4, which is nonsense. Even the lowly and much despised (by some, but not me...) Fulmar II could outclimb an F4F-4 to 10,000 ft.

VBF-13 · Jul 16, 2011

Nxthanos said:
Wildcats could and did take on zeros well into 1942 with sucess

The Zeroes could turn on a dime and give you a nickel back, that's the advantage they had over the F4Fs and the FM2s. The F6Fs had a higher ceiling and could dive on them all day long.

In the poll, I voted Wildcat. Hey, I'm a Northwestern grad.

pinsog · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
Well, I am very sceptical about that. I posted this before, but I can't find my original so here it is again:

Brown seems to imply a superior RoC for the F4F-4, which is nonsense. Even the lowly and much despised (by some, but not me...) Fulmar II could outclimb an F4F-4 to 10,000 ft.

Good post, I have that book. 2 things about Mr Brown that sometimes make me question his judgement: He rated the Hellcat and I think the Wildcat above the Corsair, AND he rated the Swordfish above the Avenger.

While his credentials are incredible, it's kinda like world renown brain surgeon claiming he was kidnapped by aliens. You know he's smart, but you still look at him sideways and say "Seriously?"

Glider · Jul 16, 2011

RCAFson said:
The F4F was only an option if someone had the foresight to get it into production sooner, and the same could be said for cannon armed Hurricanes which were in testing before and during the BofB, although personally I think the Vickers .5" would have been a better weapon than the .303 BMG, and would have been available right from the start.
Wing loading
Me109e3 = 30.76
F4F-4 = 30.5 (7930lb)
F4F-3 = 28.46
Hurricane I = 26.26 (6750lb)

The F4F-4 has only a slight edge over the 109.

True to a degree. The first RN Wildcats entered service in August 1940 so it was a close run thing but I agree had they pushed for it earlier then the RN would have ahd a fighter to help the RAF during the battle itself.

A cannon armed Hurricane was used during the BOB and did get at least one kill but the mounting was basic, its impact on performance significant and reliability poor. The RAF had been trying since 1938 to get the cannon to work but had encountered a number of problems.
There is a difference. The British had been trying their best to get the 20mm working nad its unlikely that they could have done any better than they did, so the 20mm Hurricane wasn't likely to happen in time for the BOB. Had they tried nearly as hard for the Wildcat then it would have happened.

The F4-F4 was a much later aircraft would cannot really be considered for the BOB so the F4-F3 was the only candidate which had a wing loading somewhere between the Hurricane I and the Me109E3. Whilst there is more to turning than wing loading it would indicate that both the Hurricane and F4-F3 had a better turn than the Me109.

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