Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Nobody's keeping you here...
Battle of Britain Hurricane or Wildcat (1 Viewer)
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buffnut453
Captain
No they aren't, but if people actually read posts others place we'd spend much less time going over things that have already been resolved.
Thanks for your sympathetic vote of confidence (and, yes, I do know where sympathy comes in the dictionary)
Thanks for your sympathetic vote of confidence (and, yes, I do know where sympathy comes in the dictionary)
Deployment was (from www.Freedictionary.com) derived from the French deployed, from Old French despleier, from Latin displicre, to scatter )
a. To position (troops) in readiness for combat, as along a front or line.
b. To bring (forces or material) into action.
c. To base (a weapons system) in the field.
2. To distribute (persons or forces) systematically or strategically.
The AVG vs the Brits in China - an Example :-
For example Claire Chenault in his biographies (auto) said that he was let down by the Brits in China who failed to co-operate effectively, maintain their planes (many of them were grounded due to maintenance) and a general laissez-fare attitude.
Many of the Brits radars were not properly positioned or even working due to lack of maintenance, not so much lack of parts.
They would not work alongside the AVG who actually offered to lend their own trained Chinese maintenance crews in return for sharing other resources (Radar, Planes, Fuel).
He believes that his Volunteer group were effective because they worked with the Chinese, kept as many of their planes air-worthy as they could at any one time and made sure they maximised on local knowledge and communication including ye olde telephone and runners.
They tried to keep their planes in air fields / strips where they would be most effective too - whereas the RAF tended to be mis-placed.
So, in other words, the AVG were effective due to careful intelligent deployment of limited resources - not necessarily because they had better planes, materials, support and so on .
Footnote : I say the above as a Brit and not to disrespect the RAF far-Eastern command, but we really did mess up in China, Singapore etc I am afraid.
FBJ, I think you have been misreading Cromwells points about the radial, he has been agreeing with you all the way buddy
I think it was Buffnut who said that having all Merlins in fighter command was easier and it would have complicated things having radials too, Cromwell is saying 'no it wouldn't, they already had them anyway'. Hope that helps.
Pinsog made some great points, especially about competency of mechanics, except for one thing. Range was never an issue for the RAF during the BoB, the existing fighters could have been brought into the battle from anywhere in England if required. The fact that they were not was out of choice and a great source of frustration for the commanders of those other fighter groups.
From what I have read the 50 cal was jamming quite a lot in 1940. Given that the Spitfire pilots who had cannon armed Spitfires begged for their 303's back due to frequent jamming, why should we assume that the Wildcats point 50's would be any different? Jammed guns are no good at all and definitely inferior to a working 303.
In any case I think that argument is a bit of a red herring anyway regarding the Wildcat as the RAF's chose to go from the 303 straight to the 20mm cannon, so Wildcats orderd for the RAF would have been fitted with 303's anyway imo and therefore been no different to the Hurri in firepower.
Notwithstanding my earlier post regarding the point that they would not have been operational anyway.
I Love You Man ! - at last someone has understood me ! Cool 8) (nuff respect)
Next time you are in the UK we can take a look at Duxford and/or Shuttleworth no probs !
.
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If you watch the 1969 (please check) film 'Battle of Britain' it shows a scene wherein Goering castigates his Fighter pilots for not sticking closer to the Bombers and orders them to do so.
Its a film, but I think it matches what Len Deighton also says in his book about the BoB quite closely.
So, it might have been the fault of Goering who restricted the freedom of the fighters. God Bless him.
BTW cracking film, Caine, Howard, McShane and Olivier all in one cast
buffnut453
Captain
Markus, can you please say WHY fighters like the P-40 and Me109 could only shoot at smaller angles of deflection? The USN was NOT "the only one able to use full deflection shooting". Anyone can do it - the USN may have expended more training than other air forces in that particular tactic but they certainly were not the only ones who could do it. You make it sound like it's something "extra special" when, in reality, it was used by all air forces.
O'Hare's wingman at Midway suffered a complete gun failure because of this problem. That was 6 months after America's entry into the war. Hardly "fixed in no time".
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
Umm, well, thanks
I know what deployment means, I was wondering what you meant wrt Fighter Command; so what do you think was wrong with their deployment and what would you have seen done differently?
buffnut453
Captain
If you watch the 1969 (please check) film 'Battle of Britain' it shows a scene wherein Goering castigates his Fighter pilots for not sticking closer to the Bombers and orders them to do so.
Its a film, but I think it matches what Len Deighton also says in his book about the BoB quite closely.
So, it might have been the fault of Goering who restricted the freedom of the fighters. God Bless him.
BTW cracking film, Caine, Howard, McShane and Olivier all in one cast
You can teach MONKEYS to fly better than that!
Spring-chicken to Shitehawk in one easy lesson.
Sticky undercarriage lever was it, Sir?
Yes, actually, it was.
Well I wouldn't tell the CO that, Sir. Not if I were you.
Takka, takka, takka, takka, takka!
Firstly I actually did not say 'may have been' I also said 'It was' - please read my post again, honestly
Second, you are agreeing with me again - The cannon-armed Spits experienced jamming. That was the problem - at that time - so they were not suitable for active deployment were they ?
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Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
You don't need a vote of confidenceNo they aren't, but if people actually read posts others place we'd spend much less time going over things that have already been resolved.
Thanks for your sympathetic vote of confidence (and, yes, I do know where sympathy comes in the dictionary)
you certainly don't need any sympathy, not from me anyway. It happens, people jump into a thread without reading it all and things get repeated. The bigger the thread, the greater the probability and this one's beginning to grow.
"Shitehawk" ! - I am sitting here sniggering to myself, and it takes a lot I can tell you ! There was also a bit about don't do victory rolls or you will end up spread over the fleld like strawberry jam.
Wasn't one of the CO / squadron leaders called Colin ? (the chap with the rather decourous blond wife who got upset when she found out he had a bit of a burn-up)
... is this just a coincidence or is there something going on here ?
OK I apologize for any sarcasm (and it was intended a little bit) - I almost never apologize but sorry
- and that really hurt I can tell you !However, I am no so sure Fighter Command were so very wrong during the BoB
Maybe the Far East and before that Battle of France was not so hot though .. but then we were really quite unprepared
Good Book : In the Footsteps of Churchill by Richard Holmes - it covers how really so very unprepared we were. In fact Churchill was bolstered / saved by the co-operation of Labour and the Unions almost more than his own side of the house literally and metaphorically, so to speak.
It talks about how he used to sit in the upstairs Galleries of Ops Rooms and go down and shake hands when the heat was off.
Note. I don't think Churchill was a terribly nice person, but then being a wartime leader is no job for a wimp. Not that anyone has asked me to take up the reins recently.
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buffnut453
Captain
They also used to Jam / Freeze-up at Altitude over Germany - 1944 - about 3 years after the US entry into the war. Also the USN and AAF/AF never did manage to stop 20mm Cannons from Jamming which is odd really (even in Sabres in Korea)
My Dad said that one of his projects was organizing the re-machining of Cannons sent over from the US when they started manufacturing licensed versions of the Hispano.
Apparently, we used to strip down the breach and shave off about 1/64th" and this seemed to do the trick - oddly enough.*
* Note. This was personal here-say so anyone care to comment please do. Open to suggestions.
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Yes, we're both thinking about Susannah York in the bedroom scene!!!!
She really was quite nice in her earlier years - Looked good in uniform too !
buffnut453
Captain
And not so bad (partially) out of it, either! <SIGH> Shame I'm much too young for her...
That is Sadism, Necrophilia and Bestiality all in one !
buffnut453
Captain
Everyone's got to have a hobby...luckily, mine is making model aircraft!
Yes, true, me too - that is only because I am too decrepit physically and mentally to do anything else.
( I am thinking specifically of Ms York for example, in her prime
)I must sign off for the night and stop getting carried away and before I offend too many people.
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renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
BuffNut, you mentioned earlier that people don't read posts carefully and you also question why Lundstrom said what he did about full deflection shooting. Go back and read my post that quotes Lundstrom exactly about the long nose of most fighters covering up the target when the attacker needs to have the target in sight. I really don't believe that you, like almost all of us on this forum, really understnd the maneuvers that a fighter has to go through in order to perform the full deflection high side gunnery run. It is too lengthy for me to type and I cannot reproduce the drawings in Lundtrom's book. If you can lay your hands on his book, "The First Team," and go to that appendix and study it thoroughly, you will readily understand the problem. Most public libraries can probably round up the book for you.
