Battle of Jutland.

[The Basket]

Issues that for the Royal Navy in the battle.

1, Beatty
2, Shells exploding to early
3, Beatty
4, Battlecruisers exploding to early.
5, Beatty
6, General comms failures.
7, Beatty.

Jellicoe was a million percent right. Don't go chasing victory. Don't follow onto a torpedo trap. The Germans want to think they won a battle by running away then let them.

 

[SaparotRob]

The RN would have accomplished it's mission.

 

[swampyankee]

The two navies had different victory conditions: the RN's was to drive the High Seas Fleet back into port and the HSF's was to break the RN's blockade. The HSF didn't meet its goals, although it did destroy more of the RN's capital ships than vice versa. This could make some people argue that the HSF won the battle, but German fleet did not break the blockade and never seriously challenged the RN's supremacy.

I think the people who consider Jutland to have been a German victory are missing a few critical points. One is that the HSF was in a strategically offensive position; they needed to definitively defeat the Grand Fleet: they needed a Trafalgar-like victory where the HSF could destroy the RN blockade.

 

[The Basket]

Oddly they turned to the U-Boat next.

Had the Royal Navy operated in 100% then things could have been different

Beatty should have been keelhauled after Jutland. But no he gets promoted.

Go figure.

 

[swampyankee]

Oddly they turned to the U-Boat next.

Had the Royal Navy operated in 100% then things could have been different

Beatty should have been keelhauled after Jutland. But no he gets promoted.

Go figure.

The German Navy had to both break the RN blockade of Germany and blockade Britain. It's surface raiders had pretty much been neutralized by Sept 1915. The German Navy had to do something otherwise it would find its crews drafted into the army and its ships salvaged for artillery and steel.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Something else to consider regarding the HSF claiming a possible victory at Jutland. Between the Grand Fleet and the High Seas Fleet, who was fueled, oiled, armed and ready for another go within 48 hours of returning to port?

It sure wasn't the HSF. Much is made of the GF losing 3 battlecruisers explosively, but when you look at what the battle line of the GF did to the HSF, it was a right a$$ kicking.

Had Jellicoe been informed that the HSF was running for home behind him, or if one of his battleship captains had at least opened fire on the Germans and tipped him off, the First of June 1916 would have been very grim for the HSF indeed.

 

[Capt. Vick]

"Battlecruisers exploding to early." -

Maybe they shouldn't be exploding at all, but I don't claim to be a naval architect.

 

[The Basket]

One must risk if you are to win.

The exploding had nothing to do with naval architecture.

Oddly the Pommern also blew up with loss of all hands but hasn't come an example of stupidity. Like pre dreadnoughts in a dreadnought battle is not the height of stupid.

Oddly Pommern explodes with loss of all hands and Hannover gets away without a scratch. That's war for you.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Well the battle-cruiser traded protection for speed and paid the bill at Jutland.

 

[swampyankee]

Well the battle-cruiser traded protection for speed and paid the bill at Jutland.

A major factor also seems to have been poor handling practice in the turrets, to increase rate of fire. While the cordite was a problem, and protection was marginal, there may have been also problems with bypassing or not having anti-flash measures.

 

[pbehn]

My wife's great uncle was aboard this contraption (HMS defence) and lost in action when it was sunk. It is classified as an armoured cruiser.

 

[The Basket]

Arbuthnot has a lot to answer for.

3 of the class would go down. Black Prince, Warrior and Defence. Warrior was only saved by an out of control Warspite. So only 2 of the ships exploded instead 3. Warrior would sink later

Defence had no place taking on dreadnaughts so it was an undeserved end.

Basically Arbuthnot was not 100% but his zeal and authority was respected.

But he got his crew killed. For his own glory.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The battle of Jutland was a material victory for the German simply because the Germans had better metallurgists and chemists. The German shells had less tendency to break up on impact and their explosives didn't detonate prematurely. More importantly their propellant was far more stable. I can't think of any German warship that blew up at anchor like Vanguard, Bulwak and Natal. At Dogger Bank the aft two turrets of Seydlitz burned out completely without exploding. The upper class twits who ran Britain were more interested in learning Latin and Greek than developing an understanding of science (Charles Rolls was a notable exception). The German educational emphasis on mechanics and science paid off during the war. The fact that the upper class twits gave away the chemical industry to Germany well certainly did help. Giving away vital industries to rival countries never pays.

 

[The Basket]

A few points. For Germany, it was a tactical and strategic defeat.

A tactical defeat because they ran away. Don't win wars and battles by running. Yes they killed more men and sunk more ships but Royal Navy did have more ships to lose.

Strategic defeat because the British blockade was still there. Nothing changed from a week earlier. Scheer was like let's not do that again. And gave up on a big gun battle with the RN.

So I would say the whole Tirpitz risk theory or fleet in being was a disaster. It was folly to match the Royal Navy and Germany would have been better off following Jeune Ecole and building mines and submarines.

They spent a small fortune on a white elephant.

Pommern exploded so there's that. And German metallurgy didn't do Maximilian Von Spee any good.

Britain was not only building more battleships than Germany but also building ships for export at the same time. Britain could have out built and out performed German ships all day long. The Kaiserliche Marine did not have a battleship comparable to Warspite on the day.

Yes Invincible exploded but Warspite took shell after shell like a BeeHatch and was still kicking. So 2 examples of good and bad.

If Germany was defeated by upper class twits then don't say much for Germany then.

 

[Glider]

The battle of Jutland was a material victory for the German simply because the Germans had better metallurgists and chemists. The German shells had less tendency to break up on impact and their explosives didn't detonate prematurely. More importantly their propellant was far more stable. I can't think of any German warship that blew up at anchor like Vanguard, Bulwak and Natal. At Dogger Bank the aft two turrets of Seydlitz burned out completely without exploding. The upper class twits who ran Britain were more interested in learning Latin and Greek than developing an understanding of science (Charles Rolls was a notable exception). The German educational emphasis on mechanics and science paid off during the war. The fact that the upper class twits gave away the chemical industry to Germany well certainly did help. Giving away vital industries to rival countries never pays.

I firmly believe that this is flawed in one very important way. The Battlecruisers blew up mainly because of unsafe and poor handling of the charges designed to speed up the rate of fire. Had the safe procedures been in place then most of the battlecruisers would have survived. This is often overlooked.
The German Battlecruisers were more accurate because the British Battlecruisers didn't get the Gunnery practice that the rest of the fleet received. HMS Warspite and her sister ships were only present at the battle because one of the Battlecruiser fleets had been detached for Gunnery practice, and they were the temporary replacements. As Main fleet modern fast battleships (the WW2 Iowa of the time) they were of course much better protected than the average Battlecruiser but also followed the main fleet operating procedures regarding the charges.

I do agree with the comments about Admiral Beatty. When he famously said 'there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships. He should have said there seems to be something wrong with my bloody leadership. His appalling tactics, emphasis on rate of fire, lack of Gunnery practice and dreadful communication skills were evident in the final butchers bill, which had little to do with the design of the ships themselves.

 

[The Basket]

Blue Max for Beatty.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Was about to post but realized that Basket and Glider have already said it better.

 

[swampyankee]

The battle of Jutland was a material victory for the German simply because the Germans had better metallurgists and chemists. The German shells had less tendency to break up on impact and their explosives didn't detonate prematurely. More importantly their propellant was far more stable. I can't think of any German warship that blew up at anchor like Vanguard, Bulwak and Natal. At Dogger Bank the aft two turrets of Seydlitz burned out completely without exploding. The upper class twits who ran Britain were more interested in learning Latin and Greek than developing an understanding of science (Charles Rolls was a notable exception). The German educational emphasis on mechanics and science paid off during the war. The fact that the upper class twits gave away the chemical industry to Germany well certainly did help. Giving away vital industries to rival countries never pays.

The Royal Navy was not a preserve of "upper class twits"; its officer corps had been serious professionals since at least the mid-18th Century. The British Army and Royal Navy (less effectively) also had paths for talented other ranks to progress. One problem was* that political favor and influence were highly important to promotion, leading to people with the right connections and social skills advancing more rapidly than less connected, equally or even more competent peers.

---

* Political influence doesn't just mean influence outside the military; being related to a high-ranking officer is likely to help.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I firmly believe that this is flawed in one very important way. The Battlecruisers blew up mainly because of unsafe and poor handling of the charges designed to speed up the rate of fire. Had the safe procedures been in place then most of the battlecruisers would have survived. This is often overlooked.
The German Battlecruisers were more accurate because the British Battlecruisers didn't get the Gunnery practice that the rest of the fleet received. HMS Warspite and her sister ships were only present at the battle because one of the Battlecruiser fleets had been detached for Gunnery practice, and they were the temporary replacements. As Main fleet modern fast battleships (the WW2 Iowa of the time) they were of course much better protected than the average Battlecruiser but also followed the main fleet operating procedures regarding the charges.

I do agree with the comments about Admiral Beatty. When he famously said 'there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships. He should have said there seems to be something wrong with my bloody leadership. His appalling tactics, emphasis on rate of fire, lack of Gunnery practice and dreadful communication skills were evident in the final butchers bill, which had little to do with the design of the ships themselves.

Sir David Beatty was the epitome of upper-class twitdom. He owed his position more to connections rather than merit. His upper-class distain for science and technology manifested itself in his cavalier attitude to gunnery training and safety practices. This attitude was quite pervasive throughout the navy. Engineers were 'Greasers' who never have much of a chance for promotion.

As I noted the British armour piercing shells were very much flawed. The shells were too brittle, the high explosive (Lyddite) was too sensitive and the fuse was poorly designed and prone to malfunction. The tragic part for the British is that they were aware of these flaws before the war and did nothing. In the event the actual performance in battle was even worse than the pre-war tests. The British finally took action and instituted a program to completely redesign them resulting in the so-called Green Boys. Shellite replaced Lyddite and the cases and fuses were redesigned.

Including the Pommern in this discussion is attacking a straw man. The Pommern was a completely outmoded warship that had no business being there. The Pommern had zero underwater protection and was struck by a torpedo in her 6.7" magazines. In any event this detonated the 6.7" shells not the propellant.

According to John Campbell in his book Jutland An Analysis of the Fighting:

The Seydlitz fire at Dogger Bank

"It is an often repeated error to state that as a result of this fire the Germans introduced flash precautions before Jutland. Actually, the principal step taken was to limit the number of charges out of their magazine cases or in opened cases, although too many were still present at Jutland in the Derfflinger's two turrets in which fires occurred.

"If the Seydlitz had had British charges at Dogger Bank, she would unquestionably have blown up."

Blucher at Dogger Bank

"…… the Blucher proved very hard to sink by gunfire and was eventually torpedoed. With British charges she would certainly have blown up."

Jutland

"If British propellant had been used in the German ships, the Defflinger certainly would have blown up as would in all probability the Seydlitz, and possibly the von der Tann."

"The hit on the Konig below the water line, which completely destroyed one 5.9 in magazine and damaged a second, would have caused the ship to blow up with British charges."

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The Royal Navy was not a preserve of "upper class twits"; its officer corps had been serious professionals since at least the mid-18th Century. The British Army and Royal Navy (less effectively) also had paths for talented other ranks to progress. One problem was* that political favor and influence were highly important to promotion, leading to people with the right connections and social skills advancing more rapidly than less connected, equally or even more competent peers.

---

* Political influence doesn't just mean influence outside the military; being related to a high-ranking officer is likely to help.

Yes they had extremely talented professionals such as Jellicoe but that was counter balanced by the Beattys, the Arbuthnots , the Beresfords