Best Air Force 1939-1941

[parsifal]

One last time. There is a thread to discuss the merits of the Lend Lease. This discussion needs to be moved into that thread.

My apologies. Honest mistake to be frank. I thought I had clicked on that thread, but ended up here. Having some acces issues at the moment.

I will cut and past Ctrians comment, and my reply to that thread.

Once again, my apologies for that

 

[slaterat]

This is really a tough poll to answer.To me the only two obvious picks are the RAF or the Luftwaffe. The Americans and the Japanese aren't ready for prime time and really neither is the VVS. In the BoF the Luftwaffe fought the battle it was designed for, and won. In the BoB the RAF fought the battle it was designed for and won. I'd call it a draw but since can only vote for one, I chose the one that flew the Hawker Hurricane.

Slaterat

 

[Mustang nut]

By the time of Elizabeth I and the Spanish Armada wood of sufficient size and quality for ship building was so critically in short supply that almost all of it was imported from Russia if I am not mistaken. If I am also not mistaken Francis I of Spain annihilated the forests of Spain making the Armada thereby ending any chance of replacement with indigenous timber.

When you think about it, using wood to build a Mosquito is a more advanced technology than building one out of metal. No one succeeded in making something comparable in metal, and Focke Wulf even with out the hinderance of having their glue supplier bombed out of existence was unlikely to succeed using wood to make their Moskito comparable to the Mosquito.

Perhaps the biggest leap taken by De Havilland was not installing defensive armament. If NAA applied the technology of the P51 to a twin engined bomber with a crew of two Im sure they could have been close to or even better than a mosquito.

 

[Lighthunmust]

Perhaps the biggest leap taken by De Havilland was not installing defensive armament. If NAA applied the technology of the P51 to a twin engined bomber with a crew of two Im sure they could have been close to or even better than a mosquito.

I would also place my bet on NAA. Hawker certainly didn't do it with the Whirlwind. It is my understanding that the few Ta 154 flying at operational weights would be at most comparable to the Mosquito. The He 219 was a contender but I have also read that a special light weight version was required to be a real threat to the Mosquito. There are many stories of designers and half developed designs promising to match or exceed the performance an existing operational type. Most of these stories in reality are just stories and never deliver that performance under operational conditions. P-82s operational in January 1944 would certainly be hell for German night fighters.

 

[Mustang nut]

I would also place my bet on NAA. Hawker certainly didn't do it with the Whirlwind. It is my understanding that the few Ta 154 flying at operational weights would be at most comparable to the Mosquito. The He 219 was a contender but I have also read that a special light weight version was required to be a real threat to the Mosquito. There are many stories of designers and half developed designs promising to match or exceed the performance an existing operational type. Most of these stories in reality are just stories and never deliver that performance under operational conditions. P-82s operational in January 1944 would certainly be hell for German night fighters.

The Whirlwind was by Westland, not a bad plane but dogged by its engines, not eveything trundling out of rolls royce was pure gold

I am sure NAA could have done it. A great advantage of the mosquito was its surface finish which NAA were getting with attention to detail. The problem is getting someone to order it The british ordered it initially as a recon plane, they dithered for ages mainly just over the concept. In 1938/39 a bomber without guns was seen as a strange idea requiring meds and a padded room.

 

[Lighthunmust]

The Whirlwind was by Westland, not a bad plane but dogged by its engines, not eveything trundling out of rolls royce was pure gold

Yep, you're right it was Westland. That's what happens when I start writing before finishing my coffee. Thanks for bringing to my attention the mistake of writing Hawker instead of Westland. Even with good engines I am not sure how much of a success the Whirlwind would have been. Perhaps Shortround6 will weigh in as he mentioned a possible engine substitution in another thread.

My Great Uncle probably owes his life to the additional speed that high finish gave the Mosquito.

 

[Mustang nut]

Yep, you're right it was Westland. That's what happens when I start writing before finishing my coffee. Thanks for bringing to my attention the mistake of writing Hawker instead of Westland. Even with good engines I am not sure how much of a success the Whirlwind would have been. Perhaps Shortround6 will weigh in as he mentioned a possible engine substitution in another thread.

My Great Uncle probably owes his life to the additional speed that high finish gave the Mosquito.

The Whirlwind was actually very good with the proviso that its engines didnt perform at altitude, it was as fast as a spitfire and those 4 cannon were exactly what the RAF didnt have but needed in the BoB.

Hawkers spent much of the war trying to sort the Typhoon

 

[tomo pauk]

One can wonder what if ( ) the Gloster F.9/37 or Whirlwind was 'given' in some way, as a design, to the Aussies and/or Canadians, in order to mount Twin Wasps aboard.

 

[pbfoot]

One can wonder what if ( ) the Gloster F.9/37 or Whirlwind was 'given' in some way, as a design, to the Aussies and/or Canadians, in order to mount Twin Wasps aboard.

The Brits thought that Canada was unable to build "complex " aircraft it was a thought that perservered through the powers to be in the UK much like Harris calling us "black troops" because we were not up to RAF standards

 

[Shortround6]

The Whirlwind was by Westland, not a bad plane but dogged by its engines, not eveything trundling out of rolls royce was pure gold

Well, Rolls was trying to peddle the Vulture

the actual record of the Peregrine is confusing. For an engine that was supposedly troublesome ( and all new engines are troublesome) and with a limited production run of just about 300 engines to support 114 twin engined fighters (just under a 50% replacement ratio which actually Normal) the planes using these engines last until the late fall of 1943 in front line service although I don't know how intensely they were used.

 

[michaelmaltby]

PB, regarding this: "... The Brits thought that Canada was unable to build "complex " aircraft it was a thought that persevered through the powers to be in the UK .."

The Minister of Aircraft Production in Churchill's cabinet was Max Aiken aka Lord Beaverbrook - very much a Canadian .

MM

 

[pbfoot]

PB, regarding this: "... The Brits thought that Canada was unable to build "complex " aircraft it was a thought that persevered through the powers to be in the UK .."

The Minister of Aircraft Production in Churchill's cabinet was Max Aiken aka Lord Beaverbrook - very much a Canadian .

MM

I`m talking about 1938-39 I believe we wanted to make the Spitfire and they tossed us the Hurricane

 

[fastmongrel]

The 2 squadrons that used the Whirlwind 263 and 137 used them on low level Rhubarb missions some of the hardest missions flown by RAF aircraft. For 2 squadrons on the front line to fly for 3 years without large losses shows the airframe and engine must have been pretty good. With only 114 produced there cant have ever been more than about 100 airframes available for squadron issue it would be interesting to see how many were in hand when the type was made obsolete in 1944.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... I`m talking about 1938-39 I believe we wanted to make the Spitfire and they tossed us the Hurricane"

Which used more wood ...?

M

 

[Readie]

The Brits thought that Canada was unable to build "complex " aircraft it was a thought that perservered through the powers to be in the UK much like Harris calling us "black troops" because we were not up to RAF standards

There was also the 'unskilled' American workers entrusted to build the Merlin/Packard...
With an attitude like this I'm surprised we have any friends....
Cheers
John

 

[michaelmaltby]

Never mind, Readie, Hitler called us Canadians worse. He thought if you gave every Canadian a motorcycle and a bottle of whiskey they'd kill themselves. . Or maybe that was a "bunker joke" in Berlin, circa 1944.

MM

 

[parsifal]

I think the rate at which technical and industrial capability was developing in nthe dominions caught the British (and others) off guard. The prevailing wisdom of the time was that outside Europe, the US and Japan (a distant third) there was no significant technical or industrial ability. It was a common misconception

 

[Readie]

Never mind, Readie, Hitler called us Canadians worse. He thought if you gave every Canadian a motorcycle and a bottle of whiskey they'd kill themselves. . Or maybe that was a "bunker joke" in Berlin, circa 1944.

MM

Very good MM. I bet those winter evenings flew by in the Berlin bunker, joke after joke

 

[michaelmaltby]

.... and no one allowed to smoke.

MM

 

[Mustang nut]

Well, Rolls was trying to peddle the Vulture

the actual record of the Peregrine is confusing. For an engine that was supposedly troublesome ( and all new engines are troublesome) and with a limited production run of just about 300 engines to support 114 twin engined fighters (just under a 50% replacement ratio which actually Normal) the planes using these engines last until the late fall of 1943 in front line service although I don't know how intensely they were used.

The peregrin fell foul of the necessities of war Rolls had to rationalise and settled on the merlin and griffon, the peregrin was only 21 litre so it was always going to be behind larger engines.

If Adolf had tried to launch Operation Sealion maybe the Whirlwind would be as iconic as the spitfire, those four cannon would make a mess of a towed barge.