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If the US did not enter into agreement about Lend Lease then what is it going to do with its spare production. It will not get quite the outputs that British finance allowed it to in the lead up to war....
So... the British built US industry, too... that is news.
This explains. I think French placed big order, too? Best order for US probably.. customer did not show up after paying$
Oh you little tease!!!!
Okay, because of that, here is some of the promised information. The aircraft received by the HMSO for both domestic production and those received from the US are attached.
In summary, in 1941, the HMSO received 20094 new aircraft from domestic production. At the same time 1712 were received from the US. However approximately half of these aircraft were rejected for operations in Europe, diverted to the Pacific, given the Dominions, passed to the Soviets as part of their lend lease. The domestic production figures also dont include new aircrafdt built in the Dominions, which amounted to several thousand more aircraft of various types.
Possibly 8-900 of the LL material were accepted and used by the RAF in the TO. That kinda matches upo with what Foreman suggests. Only one or two squadrons in both Bomber Command and the Tactical Group engaging the germans over France were using LL equipment
Anyway, here is the raw data for discussion
I think that we have a known disagreement concerning the strategic effect if lend lease. But the source of that disagreement stems from the degree of support lend lease was giving to the brits in the course of 1941. My figures relate to aircraft only. we can digress to other munitions if you like, but the disagreement is there, and should therefore try to restrict th debate to known facts. The best source on the degree of US aid, in terms of aircraft has been given. You cannot beat the HMSO records, they are the bible of miltary hardware receipts, and they tell the story you need to look at. 20094 to 1712, with over half of that latter number not remaining under RAF control. Just to give you an example...most of the Buffalo squadrons in malaya in 1941 werent manned by the RAF, they werent paid for by the RAF. Most were colonial squadrons, paid for, manned and controlled by the Dominions. These countries, before Lend Lease were buying aircraft direct from the USbefore LL, and would have continued if LL was not there. alternatively they could have built more of their own (unlike Britain, these countries, including my own were well in the black, with economies going gangbusters....there was plenty of unused capacity in their economies to absorb greater load, as event 1942-5 were to prove)
The same story occurs in the middle east, I know of at least 3 of those 7 squadrons of P-40s were manned and controlled, and paid for by the Dominions. I can assure you that it was a LOT more than that.
I dont agree with your comments about Grants and Shermans, being the only tanks capable of taking on MkIIs and IVs (specials). There was a great thread on this very issue, and i was surprised at some of the statistics that people knew on this very subject. Note also that the Sherman arrived very late in the piece. I have a complete OB and the numbers of aircraft received from 1940 through to the end of 1942, based on staff studies completed at the RMC and Sandhurst, when there were various challenges to simulate the campaign For North Africa. I will try to dig them out and give a number on the aircraft received in that theatre of operations.
We are back at this point of banging heads on the importance of LL. Neither of us are going to concede the point, i can see that, so it gets down now to trying to determine just how much aid was received . I have oodles of stuff on this and can go all day on it. Wouldnt mind seeing what you have as well. We dont need to argue about the effects of Lend lease, that seems rathr pointless to me, but we might still get information out there that is useful to ourselves and the resers of this thread
I wil post the actual reinforcement rates for aircraft into the NA TO which will show that 1 in 3 aircraft were not foreign. You are also failing to acknowledge that it was not 1 in 3 for the RAF, it was 1 in 3 for the allies, and there is absolutely no reason why the cashed up dominions would not be able to continue to buy foreign aircraft. I am speaking very slowly now, so you can understand....the Dominions were different countries to england and did not have the same cash flow issues as she did. That means they can either build planes themselves, buy them off England (who had massive reserves by then) or purchase them off the Americans directly......
Here we go again... How many american tanks in N.Africa? How many american planes in N.Africa? The only data on RAF strength i have come from ''The Source book of the RAF '' if i haven't made a mistake i count :
April '42 - Burma 3 Hurricane sq , 1 Buffalo
India 1 P-36 sq
Ceylon 2 Hurricane , 1 Catalina
NEI - 1 Spitfire , 1 Hudson
that's 4 units with american equipment.
For May '41 Far East(kallang) : 2 sq Buffalo only fighter units.I'm sure you could do without them.
Now N.Africa : May '41 i only have 1 sq of Maryland bomber.
April'42 : 13 Hurricane sq
7 Kittyhawk
plus 2 Boston ,1 Fortress , 1 Hudson ,1 sunderland going by authorized strength that's ~35% of SE Fighters and ~21% of Bombers.I don't know how those numbers change between those dates.
The only allied tanks in N.Africa that could go face to face with the improved PzIII and PzIV were the american Grant and Sherman but i guess you could do without those too
Oh i should note that i don't have information on the other airforces Australian and S.African.
Debate what? That 1 out of 3 fighters was foreign made? Forces in the UK had almost 100% British equipment but in Africa and Far East american equipment was vital.You can go all day about 1.712 of 20.094 and i'll remind you 1/3 in N.Africa is P-40.Also Coastal Command used large number of B-24 and B-17 VLR bombers.I have somewhere the strength of Brit army in W.Europe in '44 , for December 1944 British tank numbers with Units:
472 Churchill
1,168 Sherman 75mm
605 Sherman 17-pdr
59 Sherman 76mm
522 Cromwell
31 Comet