Best Aircraft of the India-Burma-China Theatre
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Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
"One aircraft per sortie"
Per squadron sortie, i'll take it you mean. Otherwise no Typhoon would ever have made it back to base.
Sounds correct for VERY early operations of the Typhoon, when TBO for the Sabre was as low as 25 hours, and engines ate sleeve valves, and consequently died, about every 40 hours.
This dramatically improved as Napier, with cooperation from Bristol, reworked the sleeve design and alloys used in construction. TBO went to 75 hours by mid 1943, and up to 120 hours by 1945, only slightly worse than the Merlin.
There were reliability problems stretching through to the Tempest, but by that time they were more to do with propeller overspeeding that actual engine problems.
Wasnt an ME109 E-4 found in India ?
Should put that on the list
Got there post war.
In the light of those low values (25-40 hours TBO), the Jumo-004 seems like as not-so-troublesome thing.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Were they even being operated in the CBI at the time????
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I'm with ya MIke! Who cares about weight of fire or wingloading?! The P-40 was absolutely one of the sexiest planes the Allies had in the early part.
On a practical side, the P-40 was my vote, like said earlier because, even with all its faults, still managed to give a good account of itself.
Just a quick wonder: A good portion of success in the air is pilot skill. Would those early Allied pilots had the same success if they switched machines? In other words, would the Flying Tigers be just as successful flying the Buffalo?
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Shortround6
Major General
My opinion would be no.
Not to say they might not have been sucessful but "just as successful"?
Having the speed advantage of the P-40 did give them options the Buffalo couldn't have given them.
Not to say they might not have been sucessful but "just as successful"?
Having the speed advantage of the P-40 did give them options the Buffalo couldn't have given them.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
ok. IIRC the 'fighter' tactics with the early P-40s against Zekes and the like were dive and zoom instead of turning fights. In that case were the Buffalo and Warhawk equal or the -40 still had the advantage, as you say of the speed advantage?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
He-111.
Ju-52.
Both of these were state of the art during the late 1930s.
Wikipedia has a more or less complete list of aircraft flown by the WWII era Chinese airforce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Chinese_Nationalist_air_force_(1937–1945)
Ju-52.
Both of these were state of the art during the late 1930s.
Wikipedia has a more or less complete list of aircraft flown by the WWII era Chinese airforce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Chinese_Nationalist_air_force_(1937–1945)
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
No
roughly one per sortie, the first nine months of the Typhoon's premature elevation to operational status were utterly plagued with problems, engines failed and tails broke off; in those nine months the RAF easily lost more Typhoons (and pilots) to those two issues than they did to enemy action.
I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that 'no Typhoon would have ever made it back to base'; several did but roughly one per mission didn't.
I take it you use the term 'cooperation' loosely, Bristol did provide assistance to Napier (coerced by the Air Ministry) in the form of near-match sleeves machined to fit the Sabre but they were pretty upset at having to dig a manufacturing rival out of the mud, especially when their own 2,000hp offering, the Centaurus, was waiting in wings.
The Sabre would reach the Mk V variant of the type's development path before it would be called properly reliable.
First of all as others have mentioned the poll only includes three of many fighter types in 'CBI' theater; and moreover CBI was a US term which generally referred to the situation from mid 1942 onward, ie where it shipped or flew a/c to India coming east, then based them in India, flying against Burma, or flew them on to China. So it's also not clear which of the early campaigns would fit into 'CBI'.
The poll is basically the AVG's main fighter the P40B (they also flew some P-40E's near the end of their existence in mid '42) v the AVG's main fighter adversaries, the Type 97 and to a lesser degree the Type 1 Fighter(which JAAF operating units didn't call Ki-27 and Ki-43, and neither did the Allies, which is what makes that nomenclature strange, albeit succinct), though the AVG also met a few Type 2 fighters (late 'Tojo') and Type 2 2-seat Fighters (later 'Nick').
The AVG was overall successful againt those JAAF fighters, especially compared to the results for other Allied figher units, both at the same time and even considerably later on. JAAF Type 1's in Burma enjoyed a quite favorable kill ratio v RAF Hurricanes all the way through 1943, not just in 1942, as well as lopsided advantage over Buffalo's in 1942.
On JNAF Type 0's, they were involved in the early Southeast Asian campaigns, but not in Burma or South China in 1942 and thus never met the AVG. USAAF/RAAF P-40's were generally unsucessful v Zeroes through the first half of 1942, in terms of kill ratio, and relatively seldom met Zeroes in the second half of '42, just in New Guinea in relatively few actions. Both air arms did do better in those few second half of '42 actions, but not as well as the AVG had done v JAAF opponents.
Such things are never provable because some circumstance besides the one you want to draw a conclusion about always differs. Somebody can always come back and say, 'oh but this was different', more or less plausibly. But IMO it's fairly apparent that the AVG's combination of pilot material (high hour peacetime US military pilots, mainly), tactics, leadership etc was exceptionally good among Allied fighter units facing the Japanese early in the Pacific War. It wasn't that the P-40B was such a great a/c; their success was also helped along I think by the fact that they mainly faced the less capable Type 97 early on while gaining experience, and the more capable Type 1 mainly later on.
Joe
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The 449 squadron established total air superiority within 30 days operating out of India.
No other FS could make this claim in the CBI. The P38's used were earlier models of the airplane This was 1944.
A pilot from this squadron went MIA and was reported alive by U2 pilot F. Powers when he was returned to the U.S. on his debriefing.
No other FS could make this claim in the CBI. The P38's used were earlier models of the airplane This was 1944.
A pilot from this squadron went MIA and was reported alive by U2 pilot F. Powers when he was returned to the U.S. on his debriefing.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Did you read the first post??????
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Thanks Joe. I was under the impression that the Tigers may have met 0s. I'm not very familiar with the CBI other that is was an area of operations but I seem to remember from reading "God is My Co-Pilot" by Scott that the dive&zoom was used to good avantage. But I believe that was later.
drgondog
Major
Joe - what was the Type 0 credited to Tex Hill and others in the May 1942 timeframe? Army vesion of A6M?
The AVG's retractable undercarriage opponent in spring '42 was the 64th Sentai of the JAAF, who flew the Type 1 Fighter, later codenamed 'Oscar', whose so called kitai designation was Ki-43 though Japanese Army fighter units never referred to their planes by those designations and the Allied didn't use them either, even later on. In a few early combats the AVG's encountered other Type 1 units, and there was one independent company of pre-production Type 2 Fighters (Tojo) in Burma in '42, undergoing combat trials, thoug no evidence it suffered any losses to the AVG, whiile the 64th definitely did.
The Type 1 was not recognized by the Allies as a separate plane at that time. I don't know of Allied references to such a type in victory claims untiil 1943. It would have been especially difficult for the AVG to make such a distincition. They knew of a retractable fighter called the Zero, did not know of one called the Type 1, and were encountering a plane that basically resembled the Zero (the two did look somewhat alike, though they had nothing in common as designs). It was only natural to assume those planes were Zeroes. But it's now clear they were not.
Even the few Allied units in '42 which encountered both types did not seem to make the distinction. For example the B-26 equipped 22nd BG fought many actions against Zeroes of the Tainan AG from spring '42 and encountered Type 1's of the 59th Sentai on a few raids on Timor, but apparently didn't notice the difference, all were called Zeroes. I assume the distinction was firmly established when the Type 1 was encountered more often in a theater where the Zero was also around for comparison, ie in New Guinea and the Solomons in 1943.
Joe
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drgondog
Major
Hill's first claims for "Oscar MkII" and Tojo wer in Nov and Dec 1943 so that makes sense.
Herbst had no claims for Zero or Type 0 - all his fighter claims in 1944 were Oscar/Hamp/Tojo's
Terry McGrady
Airman
- 21
- Jun 11, 2009
The A/C used by the AVG were Tomahawk IIB Aircradft bought and paid for by HMG. There was a flurry of Telegrams back and forth about this . The British Government was annoyed about having A/C taken away from it and given to the Chinese.
However, in true Political Style when it was realised that all the protests were of no avail it was suggested that "Political Brownie Points" may be gained by " releasing" these A/C
Cheers
Terry McGrady
drgondog
Major
Terry - the original P-40's were the P-40B destined for Brits.
Having said that the P-40C quickly were delivered in January and P-40E in late March 1942 several months prior to becoming the 23rd FG.
Tex Hill made his first P-40C kills in January 1942 and his first three P-40E kills in April 1942.
I believe the ABG was disbanded on July 4th 1942 but I will check.
