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Great in the Med, gives a lot of employment to the air/sea rescue boys
It just didn't have the range wanted. The A-20 went from 400 gallons to 540 gallons to 725 gallons. The B-25 went from 670 gallons on early C & D to 974 gallons in later C &D and all later aircraft in the wings, various ferry tank/combat tanks fitted later. B-26s started with 962 gallons in the wings with different arrangements of ferry tanks in the aft bomb bay.
And as we have found out, it wasn't a Mosquito lite. It didn't really have the speed to keep it out of trouble.
Bombers are essentially bomb trucks, how much tonnage over what distance.
If you can't reach the target it is useless. IF it requires 3 trips to do the same damage as another plane can with one it doesn't look good either.
Other missions (recon, strafing, transport interceptor, etc) are icing on the cake.
Being difficult to fly isn't in the plus column.
Since the Italians switched to the Allied side, how about the Savoia-Machetti SM.79?
So what? The Mosquoito only carried 458 gallons and had a far better range than any of those.
The Mosquito had 536 UKG of internal fuel.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/Mosquito_MkIV-merlin21_ads.jpg
The PR versions could have some more (auxiliary fuel tank in bomb bay).
Mosquito carried 646 US gallons and no the Mustang with 186 gallons of fuel did not fly further than the bombers. A Mustang with 160 gallons (allow something for warm up and take-off) could fly around 890 miles at 15,000ft at 290mph true. (no combat no reserve.)So what? The Mosquoito only carried 458 gallons and had a far better range than any of those. The P-51D only carried 186 gallons and it flew further than any of them. Part of the reason was a much higher cruise speed! You analysis here is crude, war isn't so simple - aeronautics aren't so simple..
More to the point, Hurricanes were doing most of the tactical bombing in the Med and the Pe 2 out-ranged those significantly.
https://www.worldcat.org/title/soviet-combat-aircraft-of-the-second-world-war/oclc/40494691Well speed is a factor. It's not the only factor, but it's a factor. I suspect speed is the main reason why the Pe 2 had a much lower loss rate than an A-20 in Soviet use (or an Il2)
According to this, the rate of missions per loss was:
Su-2 80
Pe-2 54
IL-2 (two seat) 26
A-20 19
IL-2 (single seat) 13
(source)
So given that the A-20 was a successful "light" bomber for the Desert Air Force in 1942 and 1943, that they had similar range and bomb loads, and given that the Pe-2 was (as a dive bomber) more accurate, and based on the above statistics - could survive almost three times as many missions in a row before being shot down. And it could carry rockets!... I think it's a safe bet that the Pe-2 would have been pretty useful in the Med.
That is certainly one way to look at it, but I don't think it's the only way. You did a good job of articulating the essence of our disagreement though. "Bomb Truck" is basically how the US approached heavy bomber missions in WW2 and in the Korean War and Vietnam, with limited and diminishing effectiveness. But it's not just about tonnage and range - to me it is a very simplistic way to evaluate a bomber.
Range and bomb load matter, of course. But accuracy, speed, survivability, performance, and versatility also matter. There is more than one kind of bombing mission, there is more than one kind of target. There is more than one type of threat.
And more than one way to accomplish a mission.
I think the Pe-2 was easier to fly (and more maneuverable than the others), maybe you are thinking of the B-26?Pe-2 was qualified for acrobatics: loops, rolls, steep bank turns etc., according to that USAAF film you posted earlier, the A-20 wasn't rated for that. I know the B-26 wasn't!
I think it varies by type right? I got my figure from wikipedia.
Mosquito carried 646 US gallons and no the Mustang with 186 gallons of fuel did not fly further than the bombers. A Mustang with 160 gallons (allow something for warm up and take-off) could fly around 890 miles at 15,000ft at 290mph true. (no combat no reserve.)
You are quite right, war is not simple and aeronautics isn't so simple. But comparing the most aerodynamic piston engine fighter of WW II to not particularly aerodynamic radial engine bombers doesn't tell us much either does it?
I think they could have done both. If the A-20 was useful, since the Pe-2 is similar but a little better, it may have actually been more useful. But of course that is just speculation.Sort of is the point isn't it? Are you going to replace the Hurricanes with PE-2s or replace the A-20s and B-25s?
The PE-2s needed less fuel than the A-20 and B-25 and less aircrew than the B-25 but it wasn't any better at strafing. Bomb load for most of 1942-43 was similar to the A-20 but you need 3 PE-2s to equal 2 B-25s at best. at worst it is closer to 3 to 1.
The figure for the SU-2 is for the 270th bomber regiment operating during the Stalingrad defensive operations in 19 (snip) SHould we assume that they also then achieved a loss rate 2 1/2 times lower than the older Bombers?
Bomb load and range are not the only way to evaluate a bomber but they should be the basis or start of such an evaluation. Bringing in the later wars just confusing things as more and more the overriding consideration was the reduction in casualties of the bomber crews and the high command (and politicians) were much more willing to trade massive losses in effectiveness for few casualties for political reasons.
You did mention "more than one kind of bombing mission, there is more than one kind of target." and while the PE-2 might be good at some it rather fails at others like attacking ports or flying from NA to Sicily or southern Italy.
do not confuse acrobatic ability with being easy to fly. The PE-2 had some rather nasty low speed characteristics. SOme of the Women pilots needed the assistance of the
Well speed is a factor. It's not the only factor, but it's a factor. I suspect speed is the main reason why the Pe 2 had a much lower loss rate than an A-20 in Soviet use (or an Il2)
According to this, the rate of missions per loss was:
Su-2 80
Pe-2 54
IL-2 (two seat) 26
A-20 19
IL-2 (single seat) 13
(source)
S
The source book was written by reputable authors. But it's just too old (1998-1999). I suspect that they took their numbers from the only official summary available in Soviet period. It was called (translated) "Soviet aviation in Great Patriotic War in numbers" and published in 1960s in limited quantity (less 100 copies allegedly) and remained classified until 1990s. Probably never translated but it can be found in Russian, for example:
ВВС в цифрах
ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕРАТУРА --[ Военная история ]-- Советская авиация в Великой Отечественной войне 1941-1945 гг. в цифрах (with link to archived version in Excel format).
There were two problems with Soviet summary documents: 1) Propaganda bias 2) Low quality of primary data.
While 1) is self explanatory, let me illustrate the 2) with this: according to loss tables in the above mentioned summary there were no losses of IL-4/DB-3 in 1941. None at all - despite tons of evidence of the contrary. Why so? The answer is simple: another document which was primary source for the loss table did not have breakdown by bomber type in the field "1941", just total number with small print "no data by aircraft type". Other years 1942-1945 were filled in correctly. So, negligence of some unknown clerk in statistics office led to errors in subsequent reports and to wrong assumptions in further books, articles, etc.
Back to the numbers of IL-2 missions per loss (2-seat). According to stats published in 2000s-2010s, 26 was average figure in 1942-1943. 1944-1945 figures were much higher, up to 85-90.
HERETIC!!!But from what I have read, the Pe-2 actually had good handling. So did the B-25 and A-20 to be fair. not so much the B-26 though I know some people get hot under the collar when you say that!
Back to the numbers of IL-2 missions per loss (2-seat). According to stats published in 2000s-2010s, 26 was average figure in 1942-1943. 1944-1945 figures were much higher, up to 85-90.
Surely some distinction must be made for the theatre of operation. Until after D-Day and bomber leaving the UK faced a radar guided integrated defence system with increasingly strong anti aircraft defences. There were comparatively few tactical targets within easy reach and the people living there were generally not the enemy, by contrast almost everything in the desert was put there by the military so if it wasn't "ours" it was "theirs".
This is interesting question. Su-2 vs IL-2 is good subject for another endless discussion.One wonders if the loss rate was truly that low in general and not for a small quantity of planes why production was discontinued?
Schweik, it was a general comment, it may have followed a post of yours but it wasn't in answer to it. To me, as far as UK operations were concerned, once formations needed air escort and had to fly at a certain height to avoid flak you may as well use bombers carrying the biggest pay load possible.True, I never said anything about operations in the English Channel. That is a pretty dangerous zone. But then so was Stalingrad...
S
Schweik, it was a general comment, it may have followed a post of yours but it wasn't in answer to it. To me, as far as UK operations were concerned, once formations needed air escort and had to fly at a certain height to avoid flak you may as well use bombers carrying the biggest pay load possible.
They did, but they also suffered quite high losses at times and most of the famous raids were not what anyone would consider a target before they were made. When a Mosquito made a precision raid it wasn't a medium bomber it generally carried 4 x 250 Kg bombs. The maximum bomb load was a 2,000kg "cookie" but that is basically a drum. The Halifax and Manchester (became the Lancaster) were originally ordered as "medium" bombers. If the Mosquito is called a "medium" and the Lancaster actually was ordered as a "medium" there is a 9 ton and 900% difference in bomb load. The maximum bomb load of a Typhoon and the normal conventional bomb load of a Mosquito were almost the same, the difference being the Mosquito's load was internal.yeah but Mosquitoes were still able to do precision raids in the ETO right?
I wish I could. But they are all messy. There are two types of problems with IL-2 stats:Can you post the rest of the numbers? Whatever they've got?
S
Interesting but I can show you nearly identical errors in US War Department documents that you can find on WWII Aircraft Performance on aircraft like the P-40 and P-39 and so on.
Those are imperial gallons. Converting to US gallons to make comparison to US aircraft easier you get the 646 gallons I mentioned, your conversion may vary a gallon or two.Per this, 536 internal 657 gal with the bomb bay full of fuel - but that pretty much rules out a heavy bomb load right?
Why don't you use good source instead of bouncing around to whatever one seems to support your position?According to this, the Pe-2 had a 'typical' range of 817 miles, 1100 max (which would mean using the bomb-bay fuel tank, I suspect). It could still of course carry bombs externally as it usually did. As far as i can tell that out-ranges the B-25 and most of the others on the list in the poll.
Wrong on range by a large margin. I would also note that the PE-2, at least the early ones, did very little dive bombing. The Air brakes tended to stick in theActually it does, and furthermore, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The like the Mosquito, the Pe-2 is a relatively thin profiled, relatively light, much more aerodynamic aircraft with in-line engines, which is one of the main reasons it's so much faster than a B-25. That is the chief design difference - smaller lighter more agile vs. bigger heavier and better armed, basically. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, but you are basically saying that the criteria that you like (bomb load and range) are the only ones that matter. Well as far as i can tell B-25 actually loses out on range too but my point is that other factors like bombing accuracy and survivability matter just as much as bomb load. A bomber that hits 5% of it's targets with 4,000 lbs of bombs isn't as useful as a bomber that hits 20% of it's targets with 2,000 lbs. See Douglas Dauntless vs. TBD Devastator. An aircraft which loses half the squadron with every sortie (again, see TBD Devastator) isn't as useful as one which loses 5%. And so on.
I think they could have done both. If the A-20 was useful, since the Pe-2 is similar but a little better, it may have actually been more useful. But of course that is just speculation.
Not if the PE-2 is hitting twice as many targets with each sortie and suffering half the loss rate.
:Lol Wut?8th AF and Bomber Command didn't take enough casualties!? how much is enough? To what point in the "later war years"? To kill more civilians and destroy more centuries old buildings?
The Tl DR for me is while you have claimed categorically that the Pe-2 was all-but-useless and wouldn't have been worth the fuel to fly in the Med, but I don't think you made your case.