Intended role was torpedo-bombing.
Best biplane divebomber
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Intended role was torpedo-bombing.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Yes, but it's my understanding that the Fi167 was used mostly as a transport/liaison aircraft by the Croatian Air Force instead of an attack platform.
Roger that - a case of capability being there, but not used.
There's an accuracy discussion in this topic: Dive bomber accuracy in perspective.
The Swordfish wasn't amazingly accurate as a dive bomber in tests. (49m or 44m average miss difference, depending on attack profile.) That's good, but others managed about half that miss distance. Always look out for different definitions of miss distance: average miss distance, 50% circle (CEP), etc. The same data set can produce very difference values for different measures.
The Swordfish Mk.I could carry 6 250lb bombs on the three primary hardpoints under each wing, or a single 500lb bomb under each wing. If it was cleared for the Swordfish, the large AP bomb could only be carried under the fuselage, which limited the dive angle at which they could be released. (If this information is not accurate, please give me a source that corrects it.)
I have one source which specifies a 500lb bomb or 1500lb sea mine on the centerline, or (plus?) a single 500lb bomb, two 250lb bombs, or 4 100lb bombs under each wing. However, it's well-documented that Swordfish carried six 250s at Taranto and it's not clear that this author was using information about the Mk.I. It does specify a maximum 1500lb load under the wings, which rules out both four 500lb bombs and two 500lb bombs plus four 250lb bombs. (In theory, it could carry three, with one under the fuselage.)
In practical terms, six bombs imposed considerable additional drag, limiting range. (Not that the other dive bombers under consideration didn't have drag/range problems when heavily loaded, but a single 1000lb bomb is vastly less draggy than six 250s. Also, a Swordfish carrying those six bombs is going to have its ceiling forced down to about 7,500 ft (from about 11,000 ft unloaded). The SBC had an unloaded ceiling of 24,000 ft, which is a lot more comfortable.
If you read the post immediately prior to that one properly, the one to which I was responding, you will see the discussion was NOT about the Swordfish. It WAS about the Albacore.
Oops, my apologies! That sub-thread started with a post about the Swordfish and Albacore, and I missed that it narrowed as it led to your post.
The Stannum Liberator
Airman
Hawker Hart in Swedish service was used as a dive bomber, and it was effective in the Winter War
The Swordfish also could, and did, carry 1 x 500lb and 1 x 250lb bombs under each wing. The Albacore could carry 2 x 500lb bombs under each wing but in combat typically carried 1 x 500lb and 1 x 250lb, or 3 x 250lb bombs under each wing.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
Just to mention but the Hawker Hector did dive bombing in the BoF.
Digressing, all of the variants of the Hawker Hart series could and did dive bomb from Finland to India including Spain, East Africa and Iraq. They were only declared obsolete during 1943, less than a year before the jet Gloster Meteor entered service in July 1944 which itself is about the same time the Vickers Valentia finally left Commonwealth service.
I have always had a soft spot for the Valentia which carried twice the bomb load of a Bristol Blenheim, albeit at a stately 100mph with the full 2,200lb bomb load and still did so in the third year of the war.
Empire air forces used a lot of biplanes in the early years of the war. Even the Westland Wapiti in 1942 successfully found one of the Japanese naval task forces in the attack on Ceylon and I once knew a Anti Aircraft CoOperation pilot whose Westland Wallace was refitted with bomb racks for anti invasion use in 1940.
Digressing, all of the variants of the Hawker Hart series could and did dive bomb from Finland to India including Spain, East Africa and Iraq. They were only declared obsolete during 1943, less than a year before the jet Gloster Meteor entered service in July 1944 which itself is about the same time the Vickers Valentia finally left Commonwealth service.
I have always had a soft spot for the Valentia which carried twice the bomb load of a Bristol Blenheim, albeit at a stately 100mph with the full 2,200lb bomb load and still did so in the third year of the war.
Empire air forces used a lot of biplanes in the early years of the war. Even the Westland Wapiti in 1942 successfully found one of the Japanese naval task forces in the attack on Ceylon and I once knew a Anti Aircraft CoOperation pilot whose Westland Wallace was refitted with bomb racks for anti invasion use in 1940.
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The Stannum Liberator
Airman
I didn't know about other nation's use of the Hart as a dive bomber, but the Swedes were monumental in the testing of divebombing as a tactic, and they used harts (with modifications as the planes had a hard time over time with the stresses of divebombing. Basically, dive bombing as a strategy was widely developed by the Swedes, using harts, which is pretty neat IMO.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The U.S. Marines were using the Curtiss JN-4 as a dive-bomber to good effect in 1919 and Doolittle was using an S.E5a as a dive-bombing demonstrator in 1921.
About the time the Swedes were developing their dive-bombing technique in the mid-30's, Northrup's BT was in development. The BT is the predecessor of the Douglas SBD.
Meanwhile, the Japanese Navy had their Aichi D1A nearing production, the D1A being developed from Heinkel's He50 by way of the export He66.
The Luftwaffe was using the He50 as a dive-bomber, designated as the He50A.
It should also be noted that Ernst Udet had demonstrated the value of dive-bombing to the newly formed RLM using a Curtiss Hawk II, too.
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Admiral Beez
Major
Here's a US biplane divebomber proposal that I'd never heard of before.
www.historynet.com
How a Biplane Torpedo Bomber Fell Victim to Technology
During the 1920s, the navies of Britain, the United States and Japan built a series of rapidly improved aircraft carriers. At the same time, however,
www.historynet.com
The Stannum Liberator
Airman
I'll put in some quotations about the Swede's contributions later today.
But did either the Swordfish or the Albacore seriously damage or even sink much of the enemy's shipping when used as dive bombers, apart from depth charge attacks on submarines?
It would have been the biplane aircraft normally flying at the edge of their range and endurance, surely?
The Stannum Liberator
Airman
Alright, here are some excerpts from Swedish Bomber Colors 1924-1958 by Mikael Forslund that I think help clear the Swede's history of Dive Bombing.
"Beginning in June 1934, the three Harts (s/ns 301-303) were used for dive bombing trials." (Forslund 75)
This is a ridiculous claim but it was claimed by some at the time.
"According to a contemporary saying; "It was the Swedes who invented dive bombing, which was further developed by the Americans and used by the Germans!"" (Forslund 76)
"During the summer of 1934, some 700 vertical dives against fixed and moving targets were made over Lake Storsjön and the Stockholm archipelago." (Forslund 76)
Context: [Throughout 1936-37 the Swedes experimented with dive-bombing]
"In 1938, the light bomber course was held at Karlsborg. The Luftwaffe generals Milch and Stumpf were guests, both being interested in bringing back to Germany the Swedish experiences of dive bombing…" (Forslund 82).
So although yes, while America and Japan had some dive bombing experience, I think the Swedes were leading dive-bombing in the 30's. They were doing it enough that the Germans went to them for help with dive bombing. The Swedes also developed and built and tested the Junkers K47, the predecessor to the Ju 87. The K47 was first flown in 1929. I hope this wasn't too much
P.S. The Swedes used 45 Hawker Harts
"Beginning in June 1934, the three Harts (s/ns 301-303) were used for dive bombing trials." (Forslund 75)
This is a ridiculous claim but it was claimed by some at the time.
"According to a contemporary saying; "It was the Swedes who invented dive bombing, which was further developed by the Americans and used by the Germans!"" (Forslund 76)
"During the summer of 1934, some 700 vertical dives against fixed and moving targets were made over Lake Storsjön and the Stockholm archipelago." (Forslund 76)
Context: [Throughout 1936-37 the Swedes experimented with dive-bombing]
"In 1938, the light bomber course was held at Karlsborg. The Luftwaffe generals Milch and Stumpf were guests, both being interested in bringing back to Germany the Swedish experiences of dive bombing…" (Forslund 82).
So although yes, while America and Japan had some dive bombing experience, I think the Swedes were leading dive-bombing in the 30's. They were doing it enough that the Germans went to them for help with dive bombing. The Swedes also developed and built and tested the Junkers K47, the predecessor to the Ju 87. The K47 was first flown in 1929. I hope this wasn't too much
P.S. The Swedes used 45 Hawker Harts
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Shortround6
Major General
A lot of the dates don't make sense. The German generals may have showed up in 1938 but most everything was well in place, interesting to see what the Swedes were doing but production of the Ju-87 was well in hand.
A number of forces around the world were ordering dive bombers in 1933-35.
Britain ordered the Skua in 1934. Took a while to show up.
French fooled around with the Loire-Nieuport LN.140 and crashed one in 1935 and the other in 1936. Lead to the LN.401
The Japanese had ordered the Heinkel 50 in 1930 or 31. Since it flew in the summer of 1931(?) it was ordered when? It needed a new engine and few other things but lead to both the Luftwaffe buying 60 of them. The He 50 was turned into the He 66 and that was turned into the Aichi D1A (first flown in 1934?).
The US Navy was ordering dive bombers under the term scout bomber with Vought SBU-1 Corsair being one of the first ship killers (my name) with a single 500lb bomb.
Earlier Vought and Curtiss aircraft could carry four 116lbs under the wing.
According wiki (correction welcome) the Junkers K 47/A 48 carried a pair of 50kg bombs.
First flown in 1929.
People knew about "dive bombing" in WW I in that a diving attack was more accurate than pitching small bombs over the side in level flight or dropping the crude shaped bombs from racks with the primitive bomb sights of the time. Turning the WW I experience and the 1920s experience into a viable weapon ( adequate bomb load and not breaking the plane while pulling out) in the 1930s took a while.
Swedes may have done a lot of work but with so many countries buying prototypes or buying production batches in 1933-35, I am assuming they did trials of their own before forking over the money, anything the Swedes did in 1934 or later was pretty much confirmation of already held beliefs/theories.
A number of forces around the world were ordering dive bombers in 1933-35.
Britain ordered the Skua in 1934. Took a while to show up.
French fooled around with the Loire-Nieuport LN.140 and crashed one in 1935 and the other in 1936. Lead to the LN.401
The Japanese had ordered the Heinkel 50 in 1930 or 31. Since it flew in the summer of 1931(?) it was ordered when? It needed a new engine and few other things but lead to both the Luftwaffe buying 60 of them. The He 50 was turned into the He 66 and that was turned into the Aichi D1A (first flown in 1934?).
The US Navy was ordering dive bombers under the term scout bomber with Vought SBU-1 Corsair being one of the first ship killers (my name) with a single 500lb bomb.
Earlier Vought and Curtiss aircraft could carry four 116lbs under the wing.
According wiki (correction welcome) the Junkers K 47/A 48 carried a pair of 50kg bombs.
First flown in 1929.
People knew about "dive bombing" in WW I in that a diving attack was more accurate than pitching small bombs over the side in level flight or dropping the crude shaped bombs from racks with the primitive bomb sights of the time. Turning the WW I experience and the 1920s experience into a viable weapon ( adequate bomb load and not breaking the plane while pulling out) in the 1930s took a while.
Swedes may have done a lot of work but with so many countries buying prototypes or buying production batches in 1933-35, I am assuming they did trials of their own before forking over the money, anything the Swedes did in 1934 or later was pretty much confirmation of already held beliefs/theories.
Typically, they attacked shipping with torpedoes. However they were accurate when used as DBs against shipping. Shore based Swordfish squadrons from Eagle were used to sink 2 and cripple several more RMI destroyers that were operating in the Red Sea on April 3/4 1941. The Swordfish as DBs were carrying 6 x 250lb bombs each, and this proved extremely effective.
Two carrier based Albacores spotted Hiryu and Soryu on 5 April 1942. One was shot down but the other survived a ~15 minute encounter with CAP A6M2s.
Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
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