Best ISA's?

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Yep, also had the Cutts Compensator and is pretty accurate - some SWAT were using them in the '80's!!

The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models

It is also called "The Chicago Typewriter" among others.

be they .45 calibre or 9mm.

Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?

- I'm not patronising BTW.

They were used by some Canadian units too.

And Germans! - there's footage (in Crete IIRC?) of Fallschirmjager using Tommy's Brens.

Mostly the M1928 model I believe.

Yep!

According to what I've heard the 30 round drum was the normal pick, however this will obviously vary from man to man.

The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box, the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4

It is in a wind tunnel, also the muzzle 'climbs' a lot less.

I'd have the No4 though. 8)

Sorren The British started with the drum mag's for the Thompson as we wanted maximum firepower for the squad. Howeve they were soon dropped as the rounds rattled around inside the drum and you could be heard from some distance.

Yes but they were back in use for D-Day.
 
The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4,

The hand picked Karabiner 98 sniper-rifle with the 6X ZF scope is more accurate than the hand-picked Lee Enfield Mk.4 sniper-rifle, yes. The German snipers also had the advantage of being able to fire high powered specialized ammunition from their rifles, the British snipers did not.

and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.

Those are two of the most important factors.

There are a number of other factors of equal importance.

Yes, and the K98 holds all the advantages there as-well. (Ballisticly at-least)

The 7.92mm projectile for one is ballisticly a superior projectile than the 7.7mm projectile.

The Lee Enfield stayed in service until the 1980's as the British snipers rifle and in civilian long range shooting competitions only started to be replaced in the 90's with free floating designs.

Yes, but the K98 is still in service today

The Isreali's still use the K98 as a sniper rifle and with great succes.

Also if Germany hadn't lost the war, you can be sure the K98 would have been used much more extensively during the pre-war years than it already has been, and that means a whole lot more than the Enfield.

The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has.

Amongst collectors the Mk 4 sniper is seen as a classic design and good examples cost a serious amount of money.

Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.


The accuracy of the Enfield is great, no doubt about it, but the K98's is better, might not be much but its better. And its no surprise, cause the K98's ammunition is more accurate as-well.

Its all about picking the right ammunition, as there's a heck of alot of crappy underpowered commercial 8mm ammunition out there.
 
Schwartspanzer said:
The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box,

No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums.

Schwartspanzer said:
the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.
 
schwarzpanzer said:
Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?

- I'm not patronising BTW.
No, I mean Tommy Guns. Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation. They may have been converted M1921's. Not sure, but it seems likely. I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.

Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.
 

Im in the US Army not in the German Army. The US Army does not used the G-36 or the G3A3.

The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy and that is why it was replaced by the SAW for them. However as a door gun for my Blackhawk it is perfect and works great. It does not have a regular sight but rather a circular sight used for supression from the helicoper and therefore it does not have to be dead accurate. Just get there heads down and suprress them so the ground pounders can get out.
 
Quote:
and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.

Soren said:
Those are two of the most important factors.

Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself, reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.

A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper.

The best IMHO is the Boys-type snipers. 8)

Yes, but the K98 is still in service today

So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)

The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has.

Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...

Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.

That's just the rarity value?

No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums.

You might be right there.

me said:
the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.

Correct.

NS said:
Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation.

Cheers , the SWAT ones may have been 9mm...

I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.

I might get one of those one day 8) ...WW2 barrel length, semi-auto though.

Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.

Not sure of the exact details, but I'm pretty sure they were all civilian (or crim!)

BSA (of the UK) also built a load pre-WW2, I think some were sold on the civvy market in rifle-calibre too, not sure though.

I can get a books details with some info on it? - no more than I've given though, sorry.

DerAdler said:
Im in the US Army not in the German Army.



The US Army does not use the G-36

Funny you should mention that, the UK and US are considering replacing the SA80 and M16 for G36's!

-please, please, please, pleease?

The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy

Yeah, 'the pig'

What I know about the M60 is that it has a slow RoF, is unreliable and
- this is scary, keeps firing for a while after you let go of the trigger!

You can also easily burn your hands on the barrel too, the Bren was good there. Headspace adjustment is either easy or difficult? - I forget.

Theres a few other negatives too I think...

I don't think they matter for vehicle use though?

Hey, d'ya think you can ask for a M134 Minigun?
 
The US will not replace the M-16/M-4 with the G36. They have already found there replacement for it and it is the XM-8 Rifle. It has already been tested and is on its way to approval.

 
Impressive. maybe we should hang on to the SA80 while the inevitable bugs are wrung out of the initial version. I like the rod replacement for the gas and that its for both left and right handed people.
 
I thought the MoD had already planned to start replacing the SA80 with the G36 in the British forces by next year. I have absolutely no experience with either rifle, but some old British mates of mine didn't have very kind things to say about the SA80. Mind you, they both left the British Army about twelve years ago, so they wouldn't have had experience with any improvements that may have been made to it since then.
 
I have two cousins in the Army and they like the latest version of the SA80. I have also heard that the Army are planning to purchase the G36, but there is a huge difference between Planning and Purchasing with the current goverment.
However now that the SA80 seems to be as good as most I was thinking that we may as well hang onto them and look at the XM8.
 
The XM-8 (will be known as M8 in US service) is based on the G36 (which is based on the M16).

Another one of those NIH things?

I'd have the G36 IMHO (for the folding stock)


The SA80? Silks purse, sow's ear IMHO.

Even the INSAS is better!

I'd say the SA80 is the MG/Rover of the AR world!


The Steyr AUG has to be the best 5.56mm? - pity it can't take STANAG mags, or can it?


The EM2 was tested in Russia and found to be better than the AKM and FN FAL/SLR. 8)

It's a pity the USA pushed it's 7.62mm so hard , the 7.7mm was better IMO.

Politics never gets in the way of Russian designs:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as34-e.htm

- Replacement for the AK?

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm

- Best AR in the world? More-than-Western thinking in a Russian design!

I'd like to see these in bullpup config.

One rare good thing about the SA80 is it's FG42-alike mechanism, but IMHO it is much better to have 2 choices?


A point is that composites are great for lightweight ammo, it's about time someone realised that!

However, when is Hydroform steel going to be used for bodies?

- come on weapon designers!
 
Well we will have to agree to disagree over the latest version of the SA80. I would point out that I am close to my two cousins and they know what works and what doesn't.
One of them got into trouble in the first Gulf War for 'aquiring' M16's for his unit because of the unreliability of the earlier SA80's. In the second Gulf War he was more than happy with the current version, which he finds accurate and reliable.
You will of course hear different things from different people but that is the only first hand experience that I have.
 
Schwartzpanzer said:
Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself, reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.

When you trying to hit a mans head over 600 yards away it is ! And the K98k sniper-rifle is by far the better at that.

A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper

For Urban fighting, maybe, but for long range fighting the K98k outshoots them both.

Schwartzpanzer said:
So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)

Pakistan forces field the K98k as-well.

Schwartzpanzer said:
Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...

No, most bolt-action sniper-rifle's still holds 5 rounds. The M40 for example.

Schwartzpanzer said:
That's just the rarity value?

And the quality value, as-well as the historical value etc etc..
 
The XM-8 is the U.S H&K version of the H&K G-36 - there's different design teams but it's the same company. The U.K government has been set to replace the SA80 with the G-36 for a long time the date was set for next year but as Glider says, what is planned and what is purchased is something completely different.
 

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