Best Jet of the War?

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

GermansRGeniuses said:
You seem to not have gotten the point...

It could have been dropped by an He-177, a jet bomber, or anything that could carry it...

As it is indeed a rocket, more so than a missle, it could be released at a dive, in a roughly 45 degree angle to pierce a ship's top armor, though I am saying it could be used to mount a guidance system due to its size...

That was not the intent of the weapon. An He-177 trying to attack an Allied ship as you describe would likely be a dead plane, it would have to get too close. And from such a range, why would it need a rocket motor giving 6 minutes of thrust?

The idea of these weapons was to release them outside of enemy AAA range and then guide them into the target. For that, perhaps 45 seconds of thrust is more than enough. Because the weapon is going to be in decent the whole way to the target, it does not need the thrust to lift it 30,000 feet into the air in 3 minutes, so this dicates the motor should be smaller as well.

The Hs292 weighed about 3000 lbs. The Me163 weighed about 9000 lbs. To justify using the Me163 engine on a larger scale Hs292 type missile, the missile would have had to weigh something on the order of 20000 lbs or more, and no German bomber could carry such a weapon.

The He177 could carry two Hs292's, so it might be able to carry a weapon weighing about 10000 lbs - maybe. Put the Me163 engine on that, and it would go so fast the person operating it would have almost no chance to actually guide it into the target, and it would have enough fuel to go 50+ miles to a target, but it would be out of the operators range within 5 miles. What's the point of that?

=S=

Lunatic

GermansRGeniuses · Dec 27, 2004

BECAUSE THE ROCKET WOULD GO BLOODY FAST!

Also, provided it was fairly well sized and broke the sound barrier, the boom would scare the hell out of the sailors on board, just like the sirens on the Ju-87!

plan_D · Dec 27, 2004

I'm liking the fear thinking there.

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

plan_D said:
Finally someone has mentioned the A-10 apart from me. Although missing the vital fact that it was the worlds first ICBM, or maybe that was said and I didn't read it.

Well done to RG for being one of the first Americans in history to mention the British when discussing something the Americans achieved that used British notes on the subject.

And who said this fictional missile had to have a guidance system? Bombs didn't have guidance systems, so this missile could have been dropped while the mother ship is pointing it at the ship. Turn away and go home with the tail gunner laughing as the ship explodes. Needs to be bigger for a bigger explosion to bring down Aircraft Carriers.

A lot of British ideas were perfected in the USA during WWII. The VT fuse and computing gunsights are two good examples.

It kind of defeats the purpose of a liquid fueld rocket to use it in a direct fire weapon like you describe. For this purpose, solid fuel rockets would have done the job just fine and much much safer. The problem with solid fueled rockets is they have no thrust control and endurance was typcially limited to 30 seconds or less (usually much less). A liquid fueled rocket allowed the thrust to be controlled and gave more powered flight time, which was what was needed for a manually guided standoff weapon.

If all you want is a big rocket to shoot at ships, not a guided missile, something like the "tiny tim" made a lot more sense.

=S=

Lunatic

GermansRGeniuses · Dec 27, 2004

I know - it would make other sailors think there were twice the rockets, scaring them to hell and demoralizing them most likely, kinda like the Gau-8 Avenger, the shell hits before you hear the burst!

plan_D · Dec 27, 2004

Could a 'Tiny Tim' bring down a Carrier?

Really though, if you've got a V-1 sized rocket blowing this ship apart there'd be no point in scaring them. But then, I'm sadistic so I'd want to scare them before killing them.

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

GermansRGeniuses said:
I know - it would make other sailors think there were twice the rockets, scaring them to hell and demoralizing them most likely, kinda like the Gau-8 Avenger, the shell hits before you hear the burst!

P-51's and P-47's used to use the speed of sound effect for ground attack all the time. They'd come in near the target at high speed at about 8,000 feet and head away from it, then sweep around into a steep dive and come back at it. The enemy would think they'd passed them by, but when they realized the sound was not actually still going away from them, they had only seconds before the fighters were on top of them. Often the rockets were exploding just as they started to "look up".

=S=

Lunatic

GermansRGeniuses · Dec 27, 2004

Good man!

When you bring that up, as it being V-1 sized, that means an He-11 could likely carry it...

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

plan_D said:
Could a 'Tiny Tim' bring down a Carrier?

Who's carrier and what size? Japanese - maybe but unlikely. British - probably not. American - extremely unlikely.

But the Tiny Tim 11.75" HVAR was only 10' long 1285 lbs in weight with a 550 lbs warhead. Increase that to 5,000 lbs with a 2000 lbs warhead and yes, it probably could take out most CV's.

But US CV's were very hard to take down with a single hit even with 2000 lbs bombs. They were very well compartmentalized and had lots of damage control systems, and very well trained crews.

=S=

Lunatic

plan_D · Dec 27, 2004

Quite simply, the first line could have been a no then. Dragging it out well beyond needs...

British carriers had damage control systems as did the Japanese. And was it only the US carriers that had well trained crews, I think not.

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

American carrier crews were better trained for damage control, and US ships in general were better setup for damage control and had much superior internal armor.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 27, 2004

plan_D said:
And who said this fictional missile had to have a guidance system? Bombs didn't have guidance systems,

Actually there were bombs that were "guided" atleast somewhat:

PC 1400 FX "Fritz X" Guided Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over-All Length: 130 in.
Length Of The Control Unit Housing: 16 in.
Length Of Fins At The Root: 31 5/8 in.
Length Of Fins At Outer Edge: 18 1/4 in.
Length Of Fin At Leading Edge: 18 5/8 in.
Max. Width Of Tail Width: 48 in.
Min. Width Of Tail Width: 33 3/4 in.
Span Of The Fins: 58 3/4 in.
Weight Of Filling: 270 kg.
Total Weight (Approximate): 1,650 kg
DESCRIPTION: The PC 1400 FX is a radio controlled glider bomb designed for attacks against capital ships or similar targets. The complete missile consists of three distinct units, the H.E. armour piercing warhead, the control unit housing, and the tail assembly. There are four aluminum alloy fins secured to the missile at approximately the center of gravity. The purpose of these fins is to give the bomb sufficient lift so that the control surfaces in the tail unit can exercise adequate influence.
WARHEAD: The warhead is an ordinary PC 1400 kg bomb to which the four above mentioned fins have been attached. It has one transverse fuze pocket located aft the H-type suspension lug. Two horizontal exploder tubes are centered in the warhead to insure high order detonation on impact. The usual filling for the warhead is 50/50 amatol.
FUZING: The type fuzing generally used has the El. A. Z. 38B electrical impact fuze set to operate with a very short delay. The fuze is sometimes fitted with an extension cap. Alternative fuzes have been found in the missile are the El. A. Z. 28A and the El. A. Z. 35. The wiring diagrams and the operation of each of these fuzes can be found in the bomb fuze section.
CONTROL UNIT HOUSING: The control unit housing, made of cast magnesium alloy,

Blohm Voss 246 "Hagelkorn" Guided Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufacturer: Blohm Voss
Type: Air launched guided glide bomb
First Launch: 1943
Number Produced: 1,100
Dimensions:
Fuselage Diameter: 542mm
Length: 3525mm
Weight: 730 kg.
Propulsion Unit: None
Fuel Weight: None
Thrust (kiloponds): None
Explosive Weight: 435kg
Wing Span: 6408mm
Wing Area: 1.47 Cubic Meters

Targeting:
Various guidance packages, none really successful

Blohm Voss L.10 "Friedensengel" Torpedo Glider
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufacturer: Blohm Voss
Type: Air launched guided torpedo glider
First Launch: December 21st, 1943
Number Produced: 324
Dimensions: Glider Only
Fuselage Diameter: 440mm
Length: 3894mm
Weight: 218 kg.
Propulsion Unit: None
Fuel Weight: None
Thrust (kiloponds): None
Explosive Weight: As LT 950 Torpedo
Wing Span: 2500mm
Wing Area: 2.06 Cubic Meters

Performance:
Speed: 87 Meters per second
Range: 9,000 Meters
Targeting:
N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:
Friedensengel means Angel Of Peace

Henschel Hs 294 Torpedo Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufacturer: Henschel
Type: Air launched guided glide torpedo bomb
First Launch: 1941
Dimensions:
Fuselage Diameter: 620mm
Length: 6114mm
Weight: 2170 kg.
Propulsion Unit: 2 x HWK 109-507D
Fuel Weight: N/A
Thrust (kiloponds): 1,300
Explosive Weight: 630kg
Wing Span: 4025mm
Wing Area: 5.30 Cubic Meters

Targeting:
Hs 294D - Television guidance from launch plane.
Number Produced:
20 Hs 294 V1
40 to 80 Hs 294 A-0
45 Hs 294 V2
20 Hs 294 D

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/index.html

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 27, 2004

RG_Lunatic said:
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

You know the Germans were working on VT (proximity fuses) as early as the early 1930's. The concept was not new, I wonder why they could not get it to work.

British scientists were working on proximity fuze devices for rockets and bombs at least as early as 1939. Captured documents indicate that German work on proximity fuze development had begun in the early 1930's, and was still in process when hostilities ended in the European Theatre.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Again, it was a matter of where their base industrial technology was at the time. The British could not get such a thing working either. When the problem was taken up in earnest by the USA (with the advantage of recieving all the British research notes and some British researchers), the wide base of the US electronics industry was able to supply the needed skills and construction methods. There was just a lot more diversity of research and industry to be applied to solving this problem. Sylvania was working on minature glass tubes, and focuesed on making these strong enough to withstand initial acceleration. At the same time, RCA began developing metal tubes in case Sylvania's efforts failed (which were abandon when Sylvania succeeded). Germany and Britain simply could not afford to undertake such multiple path research, they would instead try the most promising path first, then if that did not succeed, they would try another or give up.

Let me explain what I mean by the industrial/research base. Prior to WWII the USA already had companies like Sylvania, GE, RCA, Raytheon, Eastman Kodak, and Hytron (and some others) competeing in electronics and vacuum tube industry. When the VT fuse project was undertaken the skills and techniques and engineering talent of all these (and many more) companies which had previously been working as competitors along different lines of thought were able to be drawn upon to develop a working fuse. 87 firms using 110 factories were utilized to develop and produce the VT fuse, neither Germany nor Britain had this kind of diversity or depth to draw upon within their national electronics industries.

=S=

Lunatic

Makes sense

plan_D · Dec 27, 2004

OK, German remote control glide bombs were 'guided' but I was refering to iron bombs - just dropped.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 27, 2004

alright fair eneogh

Erich · Dec 27, 2004

a cheap colourized imitation of JG 7 a/c........... interesting though

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 27, 2004

It should have been left black and white.

Anonymous · Dec 27, 2004

I left out the free fall guided bombs. USA had them too. USA also had remote control B-17's that "suicided" into the target. JFK's older brother died in one arming it before he was to bail out.

=S=

Lunatic

plan_D · Dec 27, 2004

We all know that the Germans were the leading experts in most technologies though. And thank god one of the Kennedys died before they became politicians, saves him being assassinated.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 28, 2004

The Germans were leading in technologocal designs but they did lack the resources and the time to finish most of there research. Given more time they could have been devastating. As said in other posts by other people I agree that the US had the better resoarces and industry in place.

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