Best Jet of the War?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah wow what trash talking. How old are you, what 10. Atleat thats what my 10 year old nephew says "Dummy!".

 

[plan_D]

Yes, he is British. He lives in West Berkshire. I was incorrect. What type of dummy am I?

 

[Nonskimmer]

I was just joking, btw.
I'm trying to break the habit. Sorry.

 

[Archangel]

why a plane needs to c action b4 its good?
the go-229 was developed in war times, its just that the war was over b4 it could ce real action.
if it had seen action it would hav been the best one. so i'll stay on that opinion

 

[plan_D]

That is probably true, you do have a point. However, many aircraft were developed during World War 2 which did not see action. The Ta-183, Canberra, F-86...shall we count them in?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you on that Archangel. I believe that the Gotha Ho-229 would have been better than anything in the sky. But it only flew one time and it crashed so there were no more tests done on it. So pretty much any info on it is just speculation, and that makes it hard to say it was the best jet and put it in this poll.

Origin: Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG. to Horten design (see note below)
Type: Single seat fighter/bomber

Engines:
Two Junkers Jumo 004B turbojets
Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)

Dimensions:
Span 16.75m
Length 7.47m
Height 2.80m

Weights:
Empty: 10,140lbs (4600kg)
Max. loaded: 19,840lb (9000kg)

Speed:
607mph (977km/h)
Ceiling:
52,500ft (16,000m)

Range:
1,970 miles (3170km) at 393mph (635km/h) with two drop tanks

Armaments: Planned
Four Mk 103 or Mk 108 cannon
Plus
Two 1,000kg bombs



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments:
First flown in January 1945, the Ho 229 was the innovative design of Walter and Reimar Horten, both former Luftwaffe officers. The test programme showed the 229 to have outstanding speed and handling characteristics but developement was halted when US troops overran the research facility. Some dispute has arisen over whether the 229 should be classified as the Go 229 or Ho 229. Since Gothar was supposed to build 229 and didn't really design it, I'm arbitrarily going with the Ho 229 designation in honor of the designers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is probably true, you do have a point. However, many aircraft were developed during World War 2 which did not see action. The Ta-183, Canberra, F-86...shall we count them in?

Also a very good point. There were many aircraft on all sides that could have been. But they were too late or never fully developed. The list would probably number the thousands.

 

[plan_D]

I have to agree completely, the Ho/Go-229 would have certainly ruled the skies going on it's tests. We will never know though but even if it had failed as a fighter, the design technology alone was beyond brilliant.

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Yeah wow what trash talking. How old are you, what 10. Atleat thats what my 10 year old nephew says "Dummy!".

That's what i like about forums with many nationalities..It blows away the many stereotypes...Take you for example, a German with a sense of humor and who likes talking about the war....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Actually I happen to be a German with US citizenship. As for talking about the war, I happen to have a love for history and aviation and I will talk about anything pertaining to it.

 

[delcyros]

I really doubt that the Ta-183 was ever flown (in the SU).
There is simply no evidence for this claim! Try to find a prototypes picture and I will change my mind. Yes, the russians did completed or copied some german planes and projects (Me-263, DFS 346 and Ju-287 for example) but I tried to get all informations about russian Ta-183 projects and....failed. A myth? (even in russian documents you have no notice about it) There is truly influence in sewpt back wing design, as it was in La-15 and F-86. Thats nearly all, landing gear configuration and main compartments layout are different (Ta-183 bears fuel above the jet engine, the MiG didn´t).
Some interesting points about the Ho-229: It is said, that it was an unstable design, as all flying wing design (such like B-2) need fly-by-wire controls, but here I doubt. It depends more on the bell shape lift distribution of the wing to make the design stable in flight conditions. Thats what the Northrop designs missed. I have some good informations about people who did fly the Ho-III flying wing glider (and the Ho-IIIf motorglider) and they indeed had good stability. Anyway, even some Luftwaffe pilots doubted the stability of such a design (W. Späthe to name one), but none of them did fly a Horten design. -delcyros-

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I really doubt that the Ta-183 was ever flown (in the SU).
There is simply no evidence for this claim! Try to find a prototypes picture and I will change my mind. Yes, the russians did completed or copied some german planes and projects (Me-263, DFS 346 and Ju-287 for example) but I tried to get all informations about russian Ta-183 projects and....failed. A myth? (even in russian documents you have no notice about it) There is truly influence in sewpt back wing design, as it was in La-15 and F-86. Thats nearly all, landing gear configuration and main compartments layout are different (Ta-183 bears fuel above the jet engine, the MiG didn´t).
Some interesting points about the Ho-229: It is said, that it was an unstable design, as all flying wing design (such like B-2) need fly-by-wire controls, but here I doubt. It depends more on the bell shape lift distribution of the wing to make the design stable in flight conditions. Thats what the Northrop designs missed. I have some good informations about people who did fly the Ho-III flying wing glider (and the Ho-IIIf motorglider) and they indeed had good stability. Anyway, even some Luftwaffe pilots doubted the stability of such a design (W. Späthe to name one), but none of them did fly a Horten design. -delcyros-

You are partially correct. The Germans never flew one but the Russians used the plans of it and built a modified version of it and flew it.

On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities.
After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.

Meanwhile, Kurt Tank (head of the Focke-Wulf design department) had left Germany to go to Argentina in 1947 at the invitation of President Juan Perón. There Tank was to build a tubojet powered fighter for the Argentine Air Force, and he decided to build the Ta 183. Tank made several changes to Multhopp's original design, mainly the wing being changed to a shoulder mounted position. The first flight of the "Pulqui II" was made on June 27, 1950. Although the flight was without mishap, test pilot Captain Edmundo Weiss did not like it's flight characteristics. Changing the wing location disturbed the wing-lift aerodynamics, and after six aircraft were completed, the Pulqui II program was canceled in 1954.
http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

do you fink i break the cornish stereotype??

 

[cheddar cheese]

No.



You look like one but your accent isnt Cornish, and youre also quite clever

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Corny Cornish

 

[cheddar cheese]

In more ways than one.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thats alright us Dieters can be quite corny also.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

 

[cheddar cheese]

I really doubt that the Ta-183 was ever flown

What's this then?

 

[delcyros]

I did noticed that Luft´46 site. It is qouted often. What is the source for that claim? You can trace it back to some Schiffer books and Myrha. They are not that reliable. And they do not proof (the picture of a Ta-183 prototype in Luftwaffe markings is actually a model photo). Ta-183 prototypes build under russian control? Possible. They did it with the Ju-287, DFS 346, Me-262 and others. The russians did not hide german designs (Mig did copied the Me-263=MiG I 270, you can read it everywere), and there is no russian source to verify this claim. And look closer to the MiG 15, there are similarities of course (middle wing layout, swept back), but there are great differences, too: First of all, the MiG-15 was designed around a Rolls-Royce Nene engine, the Ta-183 wasn´t. The landing gear retracts into the wing (and not into the fuselage, like the Ta-183 design), the Ta-183 has a completely different section compartimentation, the Mig-15 bears all components (like fuel, weapon, cockpit, engine) behind each other (space is defined by the dimensions of the Rolls Royce Nene engine), how different looks the Ta-183! (it has no circular hull design, it even bears fuel tanks above and parts of the landing gear under its engine!) Even the wing is another design: 35 degrees swept back wing (Mig-15) with -2 degrees anhedral against 40 degrees swept back wings without anhedral. We are talking about serious design differences, which you cannot simply declare with modifications. Kurt Tank later build the Pulqui-II for Argentinia, which is much more close to the original Ta-183 and turned out to be nothing special, beeing by far inferior to the Mig-15. It is a myth that the soviets did hide that plane to today because it was part of an super secret project, it´s laughable (cold war propaganda). On no russian sources you can find a hind to it (I tried for years), you can qoute me on that. Even with the problem of a proof from the negative in mind, it´s absency in MiG-related sources is remarkeble or isn´t it?