Best Nightfighter of WW2
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
just because the mossies weren't everywhere doesn't mean we didn't rule the night......................
My Grandad met a German night pilot after the war, and the guy said that during the course of his career he'd grown not to fear the bombers' defensive guns or British flak near the coast of England (where he occasionally ventured). The only thing that sent him into a cold sweat and hyperventilation, he said, was two words, invariably shrieked at him by his observer: "Achtung Moskito!"
He said that counter-Mosquito tactics took up more of his unit's mess discussions than anti-bomber techniques, and that 'merely hearing the word "Moskito" would send any German Night fighter pilot into a cold sweat.
Allowing for a little exaggeration here, the Mosquito, just by the very possibilty of its presence in the vicinity of German nightfighter fields, caused severe delays in getting large numbers of fighters airborne. This, combined with its actual combat stats meant that, although it was impossible to dominate the night skies in the way the daylight sky was, the British bmobing campaign was never threatened, and German night bombing ops became prohibitively costly from 1942 onwards.
I cannot understand the enormous number of people voting for the P-61. The most effective nightfighter, as shown above, was the Mosquito, without a shadow of doubt. The best nightfighter was undoubtedly the He 219A-7 'Uhu', but for various reasons it was prevented from achieveing it's full, formidable potential.
He said that counter-Mosquito tactics took up more of his unit's mess discussions than anti-bomber techniques, and that 'merely hearing the word "Moskito" would send any German Night fighter pilot into a cold sweat.
Allowing for a little exaggeration here, the Mosquito, just by the very possibilty of its presence in the vicinity of German nightfighter fields, caused severe delays in getting large numbers of fighters airborne. This, combined with its actual combat stats meant that, although it was impossible to dominate the night skies in the way the daylight sky was, the British bmobing campaign was never threatened, and German night bombing ops became prohibitively costly from 1942 onwards.
I cannot understand the enormous number of people voting for the P-61. The most effective nightfighter, as shown above, was the Mosquito, without a shadow of doubt. The best nightfighter was undoubtedly the He 219A-7 'Uhu', but for various reasons it was prevented from achieveing it's full, formidable potential.
Erich
the old Sage
your understanding of German nf operations is a bit warped friend. The Germans flew missions regardless of whether Mossies were in the area or not and when they were it was usally after a mission when it was easy enough to dampenall airfield lights. German crews were sufficient enough in lbind landings so there was not a problem.
the words Achtung Moskito was not heard that often and did not create the fear you are trying to confirm. this is old news that is being updated in new published works.......
the words Achtung Moskito was not heard that often and did not create the fear you are trying to confirm. this is old news that is being updated in new published works.......
MP-Willow
Staff Sergeant
Ok so I could be wrong about the night. But as an American the whole night fighting operations are somthing not talked that much and one area that I am still horridly uneducated on. But the P-61 just had great up side. 
As I understand it the He 219 was a victome of politics and crazzy proformance demands?
As I understand it the He 219 was a victome of politics and crazzy proformance demands?
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
which is true of most of germany's later designs....................
MP-Willow
Staff Sergeant
but tht ust sucs
Erich
the old Sage
Baloney ~ The P-61 was too bloody big and the US crews were not good nf chaps to id German nf a/c let alone Allied a/c.
The He 219 had it's own teething troubles as can be seen in best night fighter thread. True, politics destroyed what may have become a leading German a/c design, but upon employment in the skies propaganda surrounded the great mossie hunter.............yeah right. it was too big, too heavy, poor engines and wing support system, not enough crew members, ejection seats did not operate correctly all the time. no rearward firing defensive arms, no tail warning radar for most of the a/c on ops........
at leat you know my feelings of this German Uhu
The He 219 had it's own teething troubles as can be seen in best night fighter thread. True, politics destroyed what may have become a leading German a/c design, but upon employment in the skies propaganda surrounded the great mossie hunter.............yeah right. it was too big, too heavy, poor engines and wing support system, not enough crew members, ejection seats did not operate correctly all the time. no rearward firing defensive arms, no tail warning radar for most of the a/c on ops........
at leat you know my feelings of this German Uhu
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
you can't really use that in the argument against the mossie as the mossie didn't have any either.......................
Erich
the old Sage
that was also a defect in the Mossie nf. sitting duck for the Me 262A-1a, and yes I can use that as a legitimate argument.........as it happened more than the fingers on your hands
kiwimac
Staff Sergeant
Erich,
Your comments would make the Me 210 / 410 leading candidates for best nf then, nicht wahr?
Kiwimac
Your comments would make the Me 210 / 410 leading candidates for best nf then, nicht wahr?
Kiwimac
Erich
the old Sage
Nein ! Worthless as a nachtjager. About the only good the 410 did was be a better day bomber destroyer than the Bf 110G-2.
Ju 88G-6 superior to anything except the Me 262A-1a
Erich ~
Ju 88G-6 superior to anything except the Me 262A-1a
Erich ~
MP-Willow
Staff Sergeant
If the German Jet was so good why was it so late in comming to full production? Was it pol;itics that came into play?
Erich
the old Sage
Of course it was ! Göring only at the last accepted the idea from Kurt Welter who could see the future of the nf force. In almost daily plea's from Welter, Göring finally gave in and Kurt was able to start up an independent Kommando. He had tested the Ar 234 but with all the frontal glass and the cramed exit door he felt that he would not be protected against the debris of a downed RAF bomber, besides being blinded by searchlights and fires from burning cities below. The Me 262 single seater was used to good effect and it was the standard for the 10./NJG 11 staffel even with the addition of 6 B-1a two seaters with only one of these scoring a victory.
The P-61 was only good enough as a ground attack aircraft, and it did it brilliantly in Korea.
You can't really use the rear-armament against the Mosquito, because it was jumped by '262s'. What is a rear gunner going to do about that when four 30mm cannons are spitting lead at him. You aren't going to stop it.
You can't really use the rear-armament against the Mosquito, because it was jumped by '262s'. What is a rear gunner going to do about that when four 30mm cannons are spitting lead at him. You aren't going to stop it.
Erich
the old Sage
remember though that the 3cm kanon was a short range weapon and the Me 262 had to get in pretty close.
also the Mossie nf and the bomber versions were both shot down by the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88G's, so yes a rearward gun would of been handy.....
also the Mossie nf and the bomber versions were both shot down by the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88G's, so yes a rearward gun would of been handy.....
Erich, my dear friend, you are severely overestimating the advantages of carrying rearward firing defences. Mosquitoes were tested with a four gun Boulton Paul turret, but the performance decrease due to weight and drag far outweighed the advantages. Neither the Mosquito nor the '219 had any need for defensive armament, as they both sported sparkling performance and a good turn of manoeuvrability. Nothing could have been added to the Mosquito to make it stand up better to a '262 on its tail than it already did. The only Mossies shot down by jets were the same as those shot down by '110s and '88s - they were taken by surprise. For a Mosquito to evade Gaerman machines (except perhaps the Uhu), it could either outrun them ('110/ Ju 88 ) or out manoeuvre them (262). Once an enemy pilot has lost sight of you at night do not underestimate the difficulty he will have relocating you... Read the stories on www.mossie.org about recce Mosquitoes meeting '262s; not once do the pilots express a wish for rear-firing guns. The Ju 88 was a very good nightfighter, but if they came up against a Mosquito, without taking it by surprise, it would be the Junkers that would be forced to fly defensively. This was conclusively proven over the Bay of Biscay where German long-range Ju 88C fighters had to be extremely wary of Mosquitoes on strike patrols in the area. The only 'advantage' the Ju 88G had over the Mosquito nighfighters was slightly heavier armament and rear-firing guns, none of which were decisive. The Mosquito's four machine guns and four 20mms were more than enough to down any German machine, and the lack of defensive guns actually made the Mossie more able to evade the Ju 88 through speed and manoeuvrability.
Oh, and I never said the Germans didn't fly missions when Mosquitoes were about (God you're frustrating), I said that they 'caused severe delays'. Now if you're prepared to argue that the Germans took no notice whatsoever of marauding Mosquito Intruders, because the Mosquito was so harmless, then kindly take yourself away from a forum where discussion of the real life WWII airwar is preferred.
As for this, this is laughable. How on earth do you pretend to know how bloody often this phrase was heard?
I also acknowledged the presence of some exaggeration in the opinion expressed in my post, but don't try and pretend that any nightfighter wouldn't be scared to hear there was a Mosquito right up his ar$e - that's like saying a Mustang pilot wouldnt be afraid to hear there was a '109 right behind him because ' 109s weren't that good anyway'.
I admire your sense of humour though Erich.
Oh, and I never said the Germans didn't fly missions when Mosquitoes were about (God you're frustrating), I said that they 'caused severe delays'. Now if you're prepared to argue that the Germans took no notice whatsoever of marauding Mosquito Intruders, because the Mosquito was so harmless, then kindly take yourself away from a forum where discussion of the real life WWII airwar is preferred.
Erich said:
As for this, this is laughable. How on earth do you pretend to know how bloody often this phrase was heard?
I also acknowledged the presence of some exaggeration in the opinion expressed in my post, but don't try and pretend that any nightfighter wouldn't be scared to hear there was a Mosquito right up his ar$e - that's like saying a Mustang pilot wouldnt be afraid to hear there was a '109 right behind him because ' 109s weren't that good anyway'.
I admire your sense of humour though Erich.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
he wont like that........................
Erich
the old Sage
u guys are such the experten aren't U ?
When you get to read my books I think you will have another awakening. My personal interviews with the Luftwaffe/RAF and Autralian/US vets tell another story. Don't give me that outmanuever crap anyway friend there was not one Mossie at night lost due to out manuevering agasint a Me 262 at night. They were all shot down. You have not given reagrd at all to the Bf 109G-6/AS whcih was also not outmanuevered in flight during August through November of 44. Your Ju 88C at Biscay line is not the same as a Ju 88G-6 in night flight. I have given you the response I have had from interviews with Luftwaffe NF crews. should I discount everything they say as bunk during the last 37 years of inteviews. ... ? have I not said repeatedly that much of what has been written the past years is being revised with the Truth ? Better wake up friends..........your quoting all old rubbish. Screw the UHU as well. Why are all of U guys so stuck on a would be a/c anyway ? See here is a prime example of wishful thinking. Get back to your records at PRO or the national archiv in the eastern US of A or Freiburg/Berlin in Germany and come up with the true stats. have we all been reading too much of William Greens tales from his outdated Thrid Reich a/c book ?
I believe wholeheartedly that the Mossie XXX was the finest NF during the war bar none, but the German machine put up a stout defence to try and counter as well as it's record of attrition against the RAF is true. The Me 262A-1a gave it to the Mossie right up the butt -- you'll read this in my book(s), but it was also self evident that it was the RAF heavy 4-engine bombers that were of the major concern over what was left of the war torn cities; reason enough for Kurt Welter to advise the ministry of taking the two seat trainer and adapting it for nf use, seondary cockpit for radar operator and Neptun 218 to be supplied as well as auxiallry drop tanks so the jet could compete in hopeful longer running battles which the A-1a could not. the problem with the counter move of the first two seaters was the reduction of some 150 mph in speed, only 1 Mossie was downed with a two seater, but the B-2a when and if it would have surfaced would of given any RAF a/c including the Mossie nf's and bombers of the LSNF a run for it's moneis.
laughing yet ?
you see guys I've been doing this much longer than many of you have been alive. Big deal you say, yeah that's what I thought so too until I got access to official German and Allied records and found what I had in my research data base of over 5,000 pages of work was true.
The Mossie needed a single rearward firing weapon in my opinion and the Me 262A-1a had to be countered. since the RAF as you say it did not feel that their wooden machine could not be caught and the losses were acceptable, the RAF cried that the known Kommando Welter base at Burg should be oblitereated and that is exactly what happened in March of 45 and while many of the jets got creamed many also took off during the bomb run to fly to norhern German to fight another day off the autobahn.........had not this base been touched you would of easily seen the RAF mossie losses double or triple. There was a keen priority to keep this 10./NJG 11 alive and also if possible enlarged as some of the more well known aces of the nachtjagd were being transferred over to familiarize them with the handlings of the Schwalbe.
A couple of examples before I close my rant. All of you do more research before you come up and explode with materials you cannot defend. I've done it enough and will continue to do so............as I nor any of you have all the information.
Second two examples to counter Huckebeins theory of catching the Mossie by surprise only. A bf 109G-6/AS pilot flying from a mission during the eve landed and took off again for his base during the early morning. Attacked from behind and above by a Mossie fighter bomber with cannon and 4 forward mg's. The expereinced German pilot banked hard after several rounds hit his right wing and the Mossie overshot, Tried to bank up to the right and was caught in the tail and fuselage by the 109's forward 3cm prop weapon and shredded as the German pilot closed in behind. Scratch 1 Mossie.
Ace and friend heinz Rökker on his last mission of the war was attacked from behind by a Mossie nf as Heinz was flying near the airfield of St. Trond. Heinz had already downed 4 Lancasters this night. The Mossie overshot while Heinz did a ducking manuever and came up and behind the Mossie and shot it down with his four forward 2cm weapons. Scratch another Mossie.
so what am I getting at guys ? Research, research, research..........
cheers, and Lanc I would really appreciate it if you would close down the smart-ass comments and wait for my or someone elses replies before you try your best to counter............it ain't workin man
Erich ~
When you get to read my books I think you will have another awakening. My personal interviews with the Luftwaffe/RAF and Autralian/US vets tell another story. Don't give me that outmanuever crap anyway friend there was not one Mossie at night lost due to out manuevering agasint a Me 262 at night. They were all shot down. You have not given reagrd at all to the Bf 109G-6/AS whcih was also not outmanuevered in flight during August through November of 44. Your Ju 88C at Biscay line is not the same as a Ju 88G-6 in night flight. I have given you the response I have had from interviews with Luftwaffe NF crews. should I discount everything they say as bunk during the last 37 years of inteviews. ... ? have I not said repeatedly that much of what has been written the past years is being revised with the Truth ? Better wake up friends..........your quoting all old rubbish. Screw the UHU as well. Why are all of U guys so stuck on a would be a/c anyway ? See here is a prime example of wishful thinking. Get back to your records at PRO or the national archiv in the eastern US of A or Freiburg/Berlin in Germany and come up with the true stats. have we all been reading too much of William Greens tales from his outdated Thrid Reich a/c book ?
I believe wholeheartedly that the Mossie XXX was the finest NF during the war bar none, but the German machine put up a stout defence to try and counter as well as it's record of attrition against the RAF is true. The Me 262A-1a gave it to the Mossie right up the butt -- you'll read this in my book(s), but it was also self evident that it was the RAF heavy 4-engine bombers that were of the major concern over what was left of the war torn cities; reason enough for Kurt Welter to advise the ministry of taking the two seat trainer and adapting it for nf use, seondary cockpit for radar operator and Neptun 218 to be supplied as well as auxiallry drop tanks so the jet could compete in hopeful longer running battles which the A-1a could not. the problem with the counter move of the first two seaters was the reduction of some 150 mph in speed, only 1 Mossie was downed with a two seater, but the B-2a when and if it would have surfaced would of given any RAF a/c including the Mossie nf's and bombers of the LSNF a run for it's moneis.
laughing yet ?
you see guys I've been doing this much longer than many of you have been alive. Big deal you say, yeah that's what I thought so too until I got access to official German and Allied records and found what I had in my research data base of over 5,000 pages of work was true.
The Mossie needed a single rearward firing weapon in my opinion and the Me 262A-1a had to be countered. since the RAF as you say it did not feel that their wooden machine could not be caught and the losses were acceptable, the RAF cried that the known Kommando Welter base at Burg should be oblitereated and that is exactly what happened in March of 45 and while many of the jets got creamed many also took off during the bomb run to fly to norhern German to fight another day off the autobahn.........had not this base been touched you would of easily seen the RAF mossie losses double or triple. There was a keen priority to keep this 10./NJG 11 alive and also if possible enlarged as some of the more well known aces of the nachtjagd were being transferred over to familiarize them with the handlings of the Schwalbe.
A couple of examples before I close my rant. All of you do more research before you come up and explode with materials you cannot defend. I've done it enough and will continue to do so............as I nor any of you have all the information.
Second two examples to counter Huckebeins theory of catching the Mossie by surprise only. A bf 109G-6/AS pilot flying from a mission during the eve landed and took off again for his base during the early morning. Attacked from behind and above by a Mossie fighter bomber with cannon and 4 forward mg's. The expereinced German pilot banked hard after several rounds hit his right wing and the Mossie overshot, Tried to bank up to the right and was caught in the tail and fuselage by the 109's forward 3cm prop weapon and shredded as the German pilot closed in behind. Scratch 1 Mossie.
Ace and friend heinz Rökker on his last mission of the war was attacked from behind by a Mossie nf as Heinz was flying near the airfield of St. Trond. Heinz had already downed 4 Lancasters this night. The Mossie overshot while Heinz did a ducking manuever and came up and behind the Mossie and shot it down with his four forward 2cm weapons. Scratch another Mossie.
so what am I getting at guys ? Research, research, research..........
cheers, and Lanc I would really appreciate it if you would close down the smart-ass comments and wait for my or someone elses replies before you try your best to counter............it ain't workin man
Erich ~
Ok mate, In can accept what you say there, except for the line 'they were all shot down'. You can't claim to know the outcome of every incident when a '262 intercepted a Mosquito, no matter how much research you've done. In some cases when the Mosquito escaped the '262 pilot won't even have known it was a Mosquito he was attacking and vice-versa.
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