Best strategy to avoid nuking Japan

[tyrodtom]

Read about radiation poisioning in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and how slow the medical community was to recognize the problems from radiation exposure.

But some of that may have been because they were so overwhelmed by the mass of causulties that they never had the time to focuse on the other effects.

I doubt that our medical community or general population would be any more knowledgable about about nuclear radiation than the Japanese.

They didn't know enough to be afraid.

 

[stona]

There are far easier ways to manufacture a "dirty bomb" than starting with uranium oxide, presumably triuranium octaoxide. Smashing up a few X ray machines would have given some suitable radioactive material. A quick google of Goiania will give you the idea.

Cheers

Steve

 

[zjtins]

"Me 262. It is not believed that adequate information for the production of the Me 262 arrived in the Far East."

As far as guided weapons were concerned the Japanese expressed an interest in a manned version of the V-1

The Japanese had versions of both the ME163 and ME262 flying just before VJ day. They also had larger versions of the ME163 (longer range) on the drawing board and I think in mockup.

The real issues though is they were out of war material especially food and fuel. The end of Imperial Japan is not a technical one but a supply one. There are several alternate history novels out there but none of them pay realistic attention to just how bad the Japanese economy was in late 1945.
There was at least one attempt to justify the use of A-bombs and had the US chosen the more costly non invasion barricade option, an estimate was sufficient to show more Japanese would have died from disease and starvation and continued bombing until if and when they would have chosen to capitulate. Also more Americans also would have died and that I generally consider Trumans motivation to drop the bombs.

The reality is no tech ever found would have saved Japan as they simply did not have the resources or manufacturing base.
To me the only what if scenario that has any viability is what if the Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbor (time for a new thread)?

 

[GrauGeist]

The Japanese had the German plans and and in some cases, created thier own designs. They were developing jet engines, pulsejet engines and rocket engines. They had several designs on the drawing board at war's end.

They were in the process of experimenting and/or building these examples:

Yokosuka MXY-7 "Ohka" - only "successful" wonder weapon produced, though it's impact on the war was almost zero. A rocket powered suicide aircraft similiar to the Fi103R in concept and carried into battle by the G4M bomber. Over 850 were built (all versions), and it's thought that perhaps only two Ohkas ever successfully struck an American warship out of all the attempted attacks.

Mitsubishi J8M (KI-200) "Shūsui" - built from plans of the Me163 Komet (thought the Japanese purchased a complete Komet, no examples ever made it to Japan) and a limited number produced, none ever saw combat, the first crashed while being tested and the rest were grounded (full scale production was ready).

Rikugun KI-202 "Shūsui-Kai" - IJA's version of the Mitsubishi J8M, it never left the drawing board.

Nakajima J8N-1 "Kikka" - based on the Me262 and similiar in appearance, though smaller. The prototype was test flown but wrecked as a result of pilot error and several airframes were in various stages of completion by war's end.

Nakajima KI-201 "Karyu" - based closely on the Me262's design but never had time to reach the test/prototype stage.

Tachikawa Ki-162 - based on the He162, it never left the drawing board.

There were plans for rocket powered trainers, rocket and jet powered kamikaze aircraft, jet powered bombers and a even a jet powered flying boat. But like Germany, thier time simply ran out before any of these designs could be refined and produced.

 

[zjtins]

Nice summary Grau.

Also the jet engines were smaller and less efficient that the Germans. Since the ME262 copy was also lighter it was not too bad but you have to wonder things like top speed at low altitude and run up time with take off time would both most likely be much lower then the ME262 who already had problems with piston fighters in those flight regimens. And with even less essential materials how long could they produce life limited engines?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Nice summary Grau.

Also the jet engines were smaller and less efficient that the Germans.

Are you sure about that?

Comparison Table between the Me262A series and Japanese Jets

 

[DonL]

I have very serious doubts about the climb performance at your datasheet.

Neverever needed a Me 262 26min to climb to 10000m (32800f)
Also alone from physiks it is impossible that the Karyu with near absolutely the same thrust and combat weight (both slightly higher then the Me 262), but slower in high speed, will climb in 13min to 10000m. but the the Me 262 needs 26min. Impossible!

Also the Jumo004 B was a engine from saving materials and alloys, the Jumo 004 A was more efficient.
Also look at the BMW 003 and the Hs011 engine for the efficiency of german jet engines, both were in production at the end of the war.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have very serious doubts about the climb performance at your datasheet.

Neverever needed a Me 262 26min to climb to 10000m (32800f)
Also alone from physiks it is impossible that the Karyu with near absolutely the same thrust and combat weight (both slightly higher then the Me 262), but slower in high speed, will climb in 13min to 10000m. but the the Me 262 needs 26min. Impossible!

Also the Jumo004 B was a engine from saving materials and alloys, the Jumo 004 A was more efficient.
Also look at the BMW 003 and the Hs011 engine for the efficiency of german jet engines, both were in production at the end of the war.

I believe you as far as the perfomance (or claimed) performance of the chart (I think there as some typo errors there). The point is that these engines were about the same size as their German contempories, if not flat out copies.

 

[tyrodtom]

One prototype, never completed, it says. It never flew, is what that tells me. So of course it had fantasic performance, on paper.

 

[Procrastintor]

NEW STRATEGY:
Well, a conventional bomb right on the emperor's house/castle/palace/etc. would've worked.

 

[tyrodtom]

NEW STRATEGY:
Well, a conventional bomb right on the emperor's house/castle/palace/etc. would've worked.

That probably would have prolonged the war. Some Japanese might have actually believed the emperor descended from the sun god, but they all knew he wasn't immortal.
It'd probably have about the same effect on the Japanese as killing the Pope would on Catholics, but probably more so.
IMO a very bad idea.

 

[GrauGeist]

The KI-201 was never built, the only jet aircraft the Japanese flew was the "Kikka" and it was a series of test flights AND it was unarmed...

 

[zjtins]

Unless you can find information other wise all the info I have seen says the NE-20 was the only jet starting production, everything else was drawing board. The Kikka flew the other had not. My comments were of the Kikka.
Also I call wishful thinking on the kikka time to climb. The jet thrust was simply too low. Modern far more efficient lower drag light jets (Phenom,Citation Mustang etc) with near same weight and a more thrust takes 20 minutes to hit 32,000 ft. With very longer roll take off of the WWII jets along and with slow throttle movement required and low thrust, and I have never seen actual flight claims for time to climb for the Kikka (didn't have time) the Kikka simply could not do that. The only possible better number for the Kikka might be turn radius. Also any bomb load would drastically reduce the performance much worse than the ME262 which the Germans stopped it in part due to the performance drop was so severe.

 

[tyrodtom]

You're making a lot of the Kikka.
It made 1 (one) 20 minute flight on Aug.7th, 1945, on attempting another takeoff a few days later, it was damaged.

 

[zjtins]

The real issues though is they were out of war material especially food and fuel. The end of Imperial Japan is not a technical one but a supply one.

If you had read all of my comment you will find I am making nothing of the Kikka, I merely clarified technical details said by others.

 

[GrauGeist]

If you had read all of my comment you will find I am making nothing of the Kikka, I merely clarified technical details said by others.

No worries, several of the other comments were in reply to another person's post about the KI-201...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's your ORIGINAL statement...

Also the jet engines were smaller and less efficient that the Germans.

Unless you can find information other wise all the info I have seen says the NE-20 was the only jet starting production, everything else was drawing board. The Kikka flew the other had not. My comments were of the Kikka.
Also I call wishful thinking on the kikka time to climb. The jet thrust was simply too low. Modern far more efficient lower drag light jets (Phenom,Citation Mustang etc) with near same weight and a more thrust takes 20 minutes to hit 32,000 ft. With very longer roll take off of the WWII jets along and with slow throttle movement required and low thrust, and I have never seen actual flight claims for time to climb for the Kikka (didn't have time) the Kikka simply could not do that. The only possible better number for the Kikka might be turn radius. Also any bomb load would drastically reduce the performance much worse than the ME262 which the Germans stopped it in part due to the performance drop was so severe.

I've already mentioned the charts were wrong...

"The point is that these engines were about the same size as their German contempories, if not flat out copies."

The NE 20 put out about 1000 pounds thrust, the first BMW 003s about 1,300 pounds. I don't have information on fuel consuption but to say the first Japanese engines were "less efficient" is somewhat enigmatic as you provide no other data or parameters, but you also fail to mention that the NE 20 came along almost 5 years later. Engine length and diameter sizes could probably be found on Wikipedia, (and I would guess the NE 20 would only be "slightly" smaller in size) a handy source for those detached from putting their hands on aviation hardware....

BTW one of these engines were tested and evaluated at the Chrysler Corporation in 1946 - it was run in a test cell for almost 12 hours. Not bad for an engine that was copied and reverse designed from cut-aways...

 

[Procrastintor]

That probably would have prolonged the war. Some Japanese might have actually believed the emperor descended from the sun god, but they all knew he wasn't immortal.
It'd probably have about the same effect on the Japanese as killing the Pope would on Catholics, but probably more so.
IMO a very bad idea.

Ah, didn't think about that. Aaaand that's why I'm not a general

 

[VBF-13]

Ah, didn't think about that.

Procrastinator, why don't you take your time, think it over?

PS: Pun!

 

[zjtins]

No worries, several of the other comments were in reply to another person's post about the KI-201...

Sorry a bit sensitive on my part.

"The point is that these engines were about the same size as their German contemporaries, if not flat out copies."

They were not copies rather a Japanese version they could produce. Lower RPM due to lack of high strength steels the Germans initially used, lower compression on each in the compressor section, no on board starter engine.

Also the spec is for clean configuration unless otherwise stated. Adding 1000 lb of bombs external would drop time to climb and top speed significantly.