BEST "TRANSITIONAL" FIGHTER

[Arsenal VG-33]

What was the first fighter to include a 20mm?

The Dewoitine D.510?

I'm not sure at the moment what was the first mass produced fighter armed with a 20mm cannon, but the cannon made it's appearance mounted on French bombers during WW 1, either a 37mm or 47mm (37mm being much more common) used mostly against ground targets. I believe it was 1915 (?), it was mounted on a Voisin 4 or 5, and also a few on Breguets BR.Ms. They were forward firing, on a swivel mount with a gunner, with the pilot sitting behind.

On the subject of 1935ish, I'd like to point out that the Morane MS. 405 first appeared in 1935, and in 1937 was voted the best fighter plane in the world after performing at the Brussel Air Ahow. After a few modifications, the MS-406 was put into mass production. The export versions were much better, doing away with the overly complicated radiator mechanisms of the domestic models.

 

[Civettone]

Can the DXXXI be changed into D-XXI please???????

And yeah, the Fiat CR.32 should be in it!

And does anybody know the Dewoitine D-371? Also reached a speed of over 400 kmh by 1935.
Kris

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Wasn't the I-16 the first operational fighter with retractable landing gear?

Avia B.534 should be in the list. Fokker D-XXXI should be in D-XXI, I presume?

Kris

Done, also added the CR 32 which should also be mentioned.

 

[comiso90]

Thanks... for adding.

 

[comiso90]

Cr 32 under restoration (. my Italian is rusty):

Great shot of the cockpit!

Cr32 all'Urbe

.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Cr 32 under restoration (. my Italian is rusty):

Great shot of the cockpit!

Cr32 all'Urbe

.

Very cool!

 

[ccheese]

Cr 32 under restoration
Great shot of the cockpit!

OMG..... his clock is all messed up.... two 5's, a 10 in the 3 o'clock
position..... now I know why the Italians are always late !!

Charles

 

[comiso90]

On the subject of 1935ish, I'd like to point out that the Morane MS. 405 first appeared in 1935, and in 1937 was voted the best fighter plane in the world after performing at the Brussel Air Ahow. After a few modifications, the MS-406 was put into mass production. The export versions were much better, doing away with the overly complicated radiator mechanisms of the domestic models.

Seems to me the MS-406 is a little late for this... The second prototype was 1937 and the first production model didn't fly till 1938. Morane Saulnier MS 405

If we included the MS-406, we'd have to include the BF-109.

The BF-109 is almost early enough to be included but it certainly isn't a "transitional" aircraft... IMO it is the first "modern" WW2 fighter which set the standard.

 

[comiso90]

Anybody else think the I-16 and the Gee Bee look similar?

.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes and no - The Gee Bee was basically designed with chalk on a hanger floor. The I-16 had a lot of thought go into its aerodynamics.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Comiso,

>Anybody else think the I-16 and the Gee Bee look similar?

I don't

Gee Bee: Wire-Braced constant-chord wing with thin NACA airfoil, fixed gear, pointed NACA cowl with exit gap combining mixed exhaust gases and cooling air.

I-16: Braceless cantilever, tapering wing with thick Tasgi airfoil; retractable gear, flat cowl with segmented inlet regulation and exit around the individual jet exhausts.

Other than being two stubby aircraft with the fuselage "hidden" as far as possible behind a big round engine, I don't see much similarity.

Here is an interesting article on the Gee Bee R-1:

The Gee Bee R1 and R2

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If anything the I-16 somewhat resembled the Gee Bee model "Z."

 

[comiso90]

To me they both look an engine with a couple wings protruding and a man thrown in as a guidance system.

.

 

[pbfoot]

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

 

[Civettone]

I can't remember any of these stories either. But I do recall that the Soviet invasion was literally the stab in the back as the eastern part of Poland was used to build up reserves and to run the country as far away from the front as possible.
So my guess is that 17 September was probably the day they decided to evacuate most of their operational aircraft to Romania. Just a guess though.

Kris

 

[comiso90]

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

I understand there was a lot of ramming going on...

.

 

[marshall]

How did the PZL11 fare against the Russians when the Poles were invaded by the Russians in 39 I can't seem to find any info on this

On 1st September 1939 Poland had 109 PZL P.11c and 20 P.11a in combat units. As we all know P.11 was inferior to German planes and Germans had advantage about 5 to 1 or 6 to 1 in the planes number (Poland about 400 planes in combat units Germany about 2000) but still there was at least one German plane shot down for one P.11. 141 shot down to 118 lost. So I think for the given circumstances it's not bad.

Probably, when Russians attacked on 17th September, almost all Polish planes where down or evacuated to other countries, mostly Romania. So there wasn't much dogfighting. I read somewhere that Russians in 39 in Poland lost 15 planes.

Some numbers are from wikipedia, other are from back of my head so they don't have to be correct but I think they give some idea how the P.11 would put up against other planes.

P.11 before 1935 was widely regarded as one of the best fighters in the world. P.24 was even better with its 20mm cannons and higer max speed but it wasn't used in Poland in 39 due to the fact that Polish airforce waited for PZL.50 and when they realized that PZL.50 won't be ready for the upcoming war it was too late to produce enough P.24s.

 

[Zarathos]

Sorry for thread necromancy, but author of that thread made an error, and I think I need to correct it.

Polikarpov I-16
Performance
• Maximum speed: 460 km/h (290 mph)
• Range: 440 km (275 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9,700 m (31,800 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.7 m/s (2,900 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 129 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0.36 kW/kg (0.22 hp/lb)
Armament
• 4× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 3,100 rounds of ammunition.
• 6× RS-82 rockets or up to 100 kg (220 lb) of bombs

For year 1935 it should look a little different. Data presented above is for I-16 type 24, which entered the service in 1939. For 1935 the right version of I-6 are either type 4 with M-22 engine which was used since 1934, or type 5 with M-25A engine, used since 1935.

Polikarpov I-16 type 4
Performance
• Maximum speed: 346 km/h at 3000 m (215 mph / 10000 ft)
• Range: 680 km (422 mi)
• Service ceiling: 7400 m (25000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 10,8 m/s (2,130 ft/min) at 2000 m (6500 ft)
• Wing loading: 93,1 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0,35 KM/kg (0.16 hp/lb)
Armament
• 2× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 1300 rounds of ammunition.


Polikarpov I-16 type 5
Performance
• Maximum speed: 445 km/h at 2700 m (276 mph / 8800 ft)
• Range: 540 km (335 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9100 m (30000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14,17 m/s (2,130 ft/min) at 3400 m (11200 ft)
• Wing loading: 103,5 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0,48 KM/kg (0.22 hp/lb)
Armament
• 2× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 1300 rounds of ammunition.

Biggest problem of I-16 was engine. Both M-22 and M-25 were licenced copies of Wright-Cylon engines with piss-poor altitude performance. Both engines were reaching the max. power at low altitudes (M-22 at o m(!), M-25 at 2400 meters or 7890 feets), and after crossing that altitude the power was falling rapidely. For example the climb rate for type 5 powered by 730 KM (740 hp) M-25 was 14,17 m/s at 3400 meters, but 1600 meters higher it was only 7,2 m/s.

P.24 has nothing to do on that list. It's production started in august 1936, so a little lat for 1935 fighter. Best you can get from Poland here is P.11c with Mercury V-S2 engine (600 KM/608 hp).

P.11c max speed was slightly slower then both I-16 up to 3000 meters, but faster at 5000m and higher. It had also better climbing then type 4 (14,45 m/s at 2000 m) and was climbing simmilar to type 5 to 3000 meters, but better then I-16 above that level.

If I had to choose from those planes, then P.11c is best one from 1935.

 

[colly123]

Just came late to this thread. There are a couple of other fighters that could be considered for purchase (and were actually used by smaller countries as first line fighters in this period.) Most of them even served with some success in early WW2 years - obviously not much 'cos by then they were obsolete.

Gloster Gauntlet - one of the most maneuverable fighters in service at the time.
Powerplant: 1 × Bristol Mercury VI S2 9-cylinder radial engine, 645 hp (481 kW)
Maximum speed: 200 knots (230 mph, 370 km/h) at 15,800 ft (4,820 m)
Range: 400 nm [3] (460 mi, 740 km)
Service ceiling: 33,500 ft (10,210 m)
Rate of climb: 2,300 ft/min [3] (11.7 m/s)
Wing loading: 12.6 lb/ft² (61.6 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.162 hp/lb ( 266 W/kg)
Climb to 20,000 ft (6,100 m): 9 min

Bristol Bulldog IV - export version used by Finland
Powered by a 640 hp (480 kW) Bristol Mercury radial piston engine; 18 built by Bristol. Not sure of the performance specs but one did shoot down an SB2 during the Winter War - in a dive!

Hawker Fury - export version with 700hp engine (used by Yugoslavia and ordered by Spain but not delivered due to Civil War.) The Yugoslav ones had two extra guns under the lower wings. Spain apparently ordered these as replacements for their Nieuport Delage 52 because their orignal choice - the Peashooter was too expensive!

Bleriot SPAD 510 - last biplane fighter used by France and also supposed to be very maneuverable.
Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs liquid-cooled V12 engine, 516 kW (690 hp)
Maximum speed: 370 km/h (200 knots, 230 mph)
Range: 875 km (472 nm, 543 miles)
Service ceiling: 10,500 m (34,650 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.85 m/s (2,920 ft/min)
Armament
4 × 7.5 mm MAC 1934 machine guns

I personally would choose the export Fury - proven design, very easy to fly, fast climber and maneuverable, 4 guns, comparatively big engine for the period, and cheaper than some of its competitors Peashooter and the I-16 (?).

 

[R Leonard]

Personally, I'd go with the F3F, but, then, I like Grummans