Best Whirlwind armament layout to fight Japanese fighters and bombers?

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IIRC (it was a long time ago) my Westland acquaintance said that the purpose of the 12 gun .303 nose was simply to supplement cannons until they were the fighter standard. Even early Typhoons has 12x .303. Of course they would not penetrate armour but the intention was that the sheer number of airframe penetrations would cause a structural failure. Hence the phrase 'sawing in two'. Essentially the armour would protect the pilot and engines but they don't work when the fuselage/wing falls in half. A brief trial against an old Blenheim apparently did just that. But, of course, a fixed ground trial is close and from a fixed point so the aim is perfect. Should be quite effective against 1941 Japanese aeroplanes.
 
yulzari said:
IIRC (it was a long time ago) my Westland acquaintance said that the purpose of the 12 gun .303 nose was simply to supplement cannons until they were the fighter standard.
...
Should be quite effective against 1941 Japanese aeroplanes.
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Bingo. 12 Brownings is more (no interruptor to decrease the RoF) than 6 times of what Ki-27 and many of early Ki-43s carried. And those Japanese A/C killed a lot of Western aircraft, including the bombers.
 
A Whirlwind against Japanese aircraft? I'll go with a nose-pack of 8 .303s, hopefully gain some more ammo for a longer firing time. Between that and decent tactics, I bet the Westland would chalk up a good score. Just don't turn-fight. Drop in, get your burst, and recover altitude.

I'm not sure any conversion to Merlins would be in the cards, though. They were heavier and no doubt had different mountings, which would delay any conversion by design processes.
 
Were .303 incendiary rounds available? That should do the trick. Unlike with a Spitfire or Hurricane, no Whirlwind pilot will have any illusions that his aircraft can turn with any single engined fighter.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Were .303 incendiary rounds available? That should do the trick. Unlike with a Spitfire or Hurricane, no Whirlwind pilot will have any illusions that his aircraft can turn with any single engined fighter.
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Even without incendiary, there's two things:

1) having 8 x 303 in about 5 ft² would do Japanese airframes up hard -- and,

2) if every fifth round is a tracer, and hits an unsealed tank, you've introduced phosphorus to a fuel source.

You're correct that trying to get a Whirly to turn with any Japanese plane would likely result in a short combat life. But given its speed, and the difficulties both the A6M and Ki-43 have with stiff controls at high speed, RAF pilots could probably keep up speed with B&Z tactics and turn the battle to their strengths. Or maybe dive out of a disadvantageous situation?

The only real requirements would be maintenance of speed, and quality high-speed gunnery on the part of Whirly pilots, I think.
 
A.G. Williams said:
Compared with other rifle-calibre incendiaries, it was about twice as effective.
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For what it's worth they found the 7.92-mm 'Beobachtung' round to be about as effective as the 'de Wilde' types. Luckily for the Allies it wasn't used nearly as much. I assume due to relative complexity/cost.

Painting a very broad brush here but basically 'de Wilde' was 50% of belts and the German 'B' round was 10% of belts.
 
Greyman said:
Painting a very broad brush here but basically 'de Wilde' was 50% of belts and the German 'B' round was 10% of belts.
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a bit more detail.
British use changed with time, early BoB (?) was 1/8th of belts for "de Wilde" and 1/8 or more regular tracer. By 1943-44 the British fighters had 50% "de Wilde". Bombers differed?

A lot of countries tried to use tracer as incendiary ammo. "Can set something on fire" is not the same as "will set something on fire". Tracers used up their incendiary compound as they flew so their incendiary ability varied with range.
 
Greyman said:
For what it's worth they found the 7.92-mm 'Beobachtung' round to be about as effective as the 'de Wilde' types. Luckily for the Allies it wasn't used nearly as much. I assume due to relative complexity/cost.
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The Beobachtung (= observation) round was explosive rather incendiary. As its name suggests, its main purpose was to indicate hits by generating a bright flash on impact, but it had the potential to cause fires.
 
Shortround6 said:
a bit more detail.
British use changed with time, early BoB (?) was 1/8th of belts for "de Wilde" and 1/8 or more regular tracer. By 1943-44 the British fighters had 50% "de Wilde". Bombers differed?
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Yes. Interestingly, the RAF's preference was to use only one type of ammo in each gun, rather than mixed belts. So in the 1940 fighting (when the Dixon ammo was in short supply) just one MG was loaded entirely with Dixon ammo, another was all-tracer, another one or two AP and the rest as "ball" (lead-cored).
 
A.G. Williams said:
The Beobachtung (= observation) round was explosive rather incendiary. As its name suggests, its main purpose was to indicate hits by generating a bright flash on impact, but it had the potential to cause fires.
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As far as the Ordnance Board was concerned the 'observation' designation was there for legal reasons. Per firing trials vs. replica Heinkel wing:
  1. the tiny explosive filling was there distribute the main contents: 380 milligrams white phosphorous
  2. the round was far too insensitive to explode on stressed-metal skin, making the round ineffective for observing strikes
  3. after functioning there was a delay of about one foot before the air could ignite the phosphorous
It was noted that the above detriments to its qualities as an observation bullet were advantages as an incendiary bullet.

In another report a German prisoner stated that the round was used for incendiary effect on aircraft petrol tanks.

Interestingly, the German ammo handbook (1938) had this to say on the subject 'The B-bullet is used only in peace-time. It is useful for ballistic experiments.'
 

Did this change later in the war, with 2 20mm, and 4 .303s did they start using mixed ammo belts?
 
Just for the Hispanos. For most of the war it was a 2-by-2 sequence of 2x HE/I then 2x Ball -- later 2x HE/I then 2x SAP/I.

The Brownings were 2x guns AP, 2x guns Incendiary.
 
Red5 said:
Thanks! Do you know of any good sources on this?
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I can't think of anywhere I've seen it online. My source is copies made of a document;

Ideal Proportions of Ammunition for .303 inch, .50 inch, and 20 m.m Installations​
Prepared and circulated by​
The Directorate of Air Tactics (A.T.5)​
(Air Ministry)​

Earliest version I can see is January 1939 and latest May 1945.
 
couldnt you just leave the 20s in the nose and then mount like 2 tp 4 .50 an/m2 brownings in each wing
 
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